GeneralDisorder Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 *Fixed* - It was plugs and wires all along. See page 2 for details and pictures. This car sat for 4 years with a blown 22T, blown turbo, blown radiator, and blown heater core..... current engine is from a 93 or 94 touring wagon - should have around 110k on it. Bone stock - just getting the kinks worked out as I finally got it on the road last week. It's got a walbro fuel pump (don't know which model). Installed by the last owner while trying to troubleshoot a no start. Turned out to be the valve timing but his fuel pump install seems to be working. I had to fix the shoddy wiring job (wires twisted together and wrapped cheap e-tape) and replace some non-injection rated hose (almost killed me when it burst on the freeway )..... but otherwise it seems fine. Runs ok - idles decent at around 800. Good power for normal driving. I can feel the boost come on under 3/4 throttle or so. When I go full throttle I get some surging and fluttering - feels like it's going lean. It does this fairly consistently at full throttle. It feels like a rapid fluttering surge at lower speeds, and a power loss/slower surging at freeway speeds. I don't want to harm anything with a lean condition if it's got plugged up injectors so I've been easy on it... the gas smelled pretty nasty that was in it. It got a new fuel filter when the engine went in, and another new one after the first tank. Also threw in a bottle of techron. I have another complete manifold - I don't know if it's the original or the one from the replacement motor as I didn't do the initial engine install (it came to me half installed ). But I have a complete set of turbo injectors on the extra manifold... boxes of other duplicate parts as well. It's got no CEL after 75 miles of driving, and the CEL definitely works. I had to replace the knock sensor when I first got it running so if it was detecting a problem I'm confident it would tell me. Might be time to hookup my wideband huh? Thoughts? Things I can test? GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 how's the ignition stuff GD? watch at night or under mist of water to look for sparks, listen to the idle? you have probably seen (and gotten annoyed) at my commentary, but EJ engines with problematic ignition wires are nothing new to me (even brand new wires). MAF? they can get dirty and need a cleaning or have a broken wire in the air flow. on one turbo motor i pulled apart oil was all up in the intake hose all the way into the MAF as well. the metal screen was even blown through. TPS? not sure about the EJ series stuff, never had to mess with it, but on older gen stuff rebuilding the TPS (pulling apart and cleaning the contacts) can smooth things out. good luck! i don't know touring wagons, is that a turbo motor as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 It sounds like it's leaning out at full throttle to me too. Check the fuel pump for volume, then hook up a pressure tester and make sure the pump will put out max rated pressure with the return line pinched off. A vacuum gauge will tell you if it's restricted exhaust. PS What Gary said about the MAF too. Backprobe the connector and look for an smooth rise in voltage as you sweep the throttle to wot (engine running). Clean the maf with maf cleaner, elec contact cleaner, or brake kleen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 6, 2008 Author Share Posted August 6, 2008 how's the ignition stuff GD? watch at night or under mist of water to look for sparks, listen to the idle? you have probably seen (and gotten annoyed) at my commentary, but EJ engines with problematic ignition wires are nothing new to me (even brand new wires). Yeah - the wires aren't new but the plugs are. I'll check it out but the idle is solid enough that I don't think ignition is my issue. MAF? they can get dirty and need a cleaning or have a broken wire in the air flow. on one turbo motor i pulled apart oil was all up in the intake hose all the way into the MAF as well. the metal screen was even blown through. I'll clean it on general principle. There's no oil in there - I've had all that apart recently. I do have MAF cleaner though so I might as well use it. TPS? not sure about the EJ series stuff, never had to mess with it, but on older gen stuff rebuilding the TPS (pulling apart and cleaning the contacts) can smooth things out. Yeah - that I don't know about but I'll check for smooth operation with my MM. good luck! i don't know touring wagons, is that a turbo motor as well? Yes - the EJ22T's were the 91 to 94 "sport sedan" (SS), and the 93/94 "Turbo Touring Wagon" (TTW). The wagons only came as automatics. Of the SS's the '91 is the monster - factory with the VLSD, oil cooler, etc. They cut some of the cool goodies after the first year. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 6, 2008 Author Share Posted August 6, 2008 It sounds like it's leaning out at full throttle to me too. Check the fuel pump for volume, then hook up a pressure tester and make sure the pump will put out max rated pressure with the return line pinched off. Yeah - I think I will do that. I wish the kid knew what pump he installed. . Pretty sure it's the Walbro that everyone reccomends for these so it should be fine but I should be sure. A vacuum gauge will tell you if it's restricted exhaust. Should have mentioned it's got a brand new turbo-back, 3" stainless system. No cats anywhere. Pretty sure that's not me issue PS What Gary said about the MAF too. Backprobe the connector and look for an smooth rise in voltage as you sweep the throttle to wot (engine running). Clean the maf with maf cleaner, elec contact cleaner, or brake kleen. Will do. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 7, 2008 Author Share Posted August 7, 2008 Cleaned the MAF tonight. Found some of the intake boot hose clamps loose. Didn't change much. The idle dropped a few hundred at first but after a drive it's back to normal. No CEL's still. The fluttering feels like it happens when the boost comes on strong. It loses power and starts missing and surging. Still have more to check but that's what I had time for tonight. So I think next I'll put a DMM on the TPS and the MAF. Anyone got the pinouts and specs for the turbo TPS and MAF? GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 7, 2008 Author Share Posted August 7, 2008 Further reading suggests I may want to check the Boost Control Solenoid. I just happen to have an extra and I think it's the low mileage one that came with the replacement engine. That's a simple drop-in and go so I'll check that tomorrow. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSubaruJunkie Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 You got a laptop setup for the VRG scan tool? I'd suggest running that and just use it to help see what the ECU is reporting. I would also suggest new wires. I did new plugs one day, and after a test drive it had absolutly 0 power under boost. I found out one of the wires had pretty much deteriorated. A new set made the car feel like new again. If there is any doubt in your mind, spend the extra $50 or so on some new wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 I replaced the boost control solenoid and it might have helped just a bit, but the problem is still there - especially taking off from a stop. The one I put in was definately the low mileage one from the 93 automatic as it had some gizmo on the back of the bracket that my 91 doesn't have. It also looked cleaner and newer. I think I can safely rule out the BCS. I may break out my DMM and go hunting for MAF and TPS readings tonight when it cools off a bit. Anyone got the MAF and TPS pinouts and ranges? Plugs and wires look good. They were fairly new and such when the engine was installed it looks like - less than 110k on the engine and they look to be quality replacements so they can't have much mileage on them. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoostedBalls Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 I just solved the very same symptoms on my 91SS. I replaced a ton of parts only to go back and double check what I had done initially. My knock sensor wiring was the culprit. The block was kinda nasty under the knock sensor and I think I wasn't getting a very good ground. THIS DID NOT THROW A CEL. As soon as I got a good ground on the knock sensor, the thing runs like a beast. I ended up moving my knock sensor closer to the trans and I have yet to hear any pinging. Boost comes on strong and stays there now. In retrospect, I could have just attached a ground wire under the bolt that holds the sensor down and ground it in that tapped hole in the block near the trans. use 5/16 ring terminals. you already replaced the knock sensor? If you are positive that the connection is perfect, you could run some seafoam through the wastegate solenoid to see if it makes a difference but I doubt it will. It also sounds like the car could use a good visual inspection since a retard owned it previously. I would take the fuel pump out and make sure the hoses are tight and the wiring is safe. Bad you don't want to be driving a bomb right? A bad connection above the fuel line could be The Walbro GS341 and GS342 are the common upgrades. Lets hope you have the GS342; it is built a bit beefier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 Hhhmmm - knock sensor was not *just* replaced. That was a whole saga unfortunately. When they blew up the original engine they managed to get the whole thing so hot the knock sensor meleted into a puddle on the original block. Part of the harness melted also. I had to replace a section of harness and I soldered into the wireing back where it was still good. Sadly the RF sheilding was unsalvageable.... I hope that doesn't matter. But where did you end up moving the knock sensor to exactly? Did you tap a new hole or use an existing one? Some place more accesible I hope? I'll definately be checking the fuel pump out closer. I did redo all the wireing top-side where he cut and pasted it. I have no desire to ride the bomb. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 I cleaned the bottom of the knock sensor and a spot closer to the tranny on the block and moved it there. No change for me. It's like a rapid pulsation - at 40 MPH in 4th gear I can floor it and the pulsation is like a machine gun - rapid and you can feel/see the shifter shaking from it. It's like the boost is fluttering. It's accompanied by a lack of power. It still accelerates but not like it should under full boost. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoostedBalls Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 That sounds like the same thing I had for sure. I'll bet your shielded wire is toast! And yes, the shielded wire has to be there. The Knock sensor is nothing more than a microphone that creates VERY small voltages that the ecm sees as knock. The shield helps to shunt the other small voltages in the engine bay (ignition, etc) from being induced on the center condictor of the wire. There's lits of stray voltage in an engine compartment. I would run a new shielded wire to ecm, or at least close enough to it that you can get rid of the toasty wire. The shield must be complete from the sensor connection to the ecm. If your wire got toasty enough to crack or melt the insulation between the center conductor and the shield, it would ground out the signal and your ecm will pull timing. Radio shack will have the right shielded wire for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Might try running it in D-Check mode where you drive it with the black connectors together see if it finds something. Might also try putting a vac gauge on it and see if the exhaust is plugged up from the motor? Are you sure you got all the bad gas out from it sitting that long? Fuel filter replaced already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 Ok - I feel like a total noob wasting everyone's time like this. It's fixed. I'm not going to make any excuses because I should have checked these things. It was the plugs and wires after all. Brain - you called it and I shot you down. I will say that I'm learning about forced induction as I go here and I'm surprised at the way it would run fine without boost and then with the higher cylinder pressures the spark would just basically STOP. Amazing. No N/A application that I've ever played with acts anything like that. Bad plugs are pretty apparent in N/A land where they aren't obvious at all in Turbo land. It really felt like a fuel delivery problem - the transition was so sudden and predictable that I didn't think plugs could be the issue. The engine purportedly has just under 105k on it. And I'm almost positive these plugs are orginal or close to it. They are OEM plugs as I just replaced them with a set. (new plug in the middle for comparison). Notice that the groove in the electrode is completely burned away! Thanks for all the sugestions guys. It runs like the beast it is now. Love that power! GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Doncha hate it when that happens? Me and my boss call it "Can't see the forest for all the damn trees in the way!" syndrome. Then we laugh and remind ourselves to check all the basic tune-up parts and simple diagnostics first. Happens to the best. Glad you got it figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoostedBalls Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 looks just like mine at the start of my troubleshooting. I even gapped my new ones to around .030" just to make sure I had enough voltage to light them off. Also dropped coin on plug wires. No joy for me; I'm glad it solved your issue. Don't forget the antiseize. It sucks to pull the threads out of an otherwise good head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 Doncha hate it when that happens? Me and my boss call it "Can't see the forest for all the damn trees in the way!" syndrome. Then we laugh and remind ourselves to check all the basic tune-up parts and simple diagnostics first. Happens to the best. Glad you got it figured out. Yeah - the kid I got the car from "resealed" the engine before he (half) installed it. I know he did the head gaskets and it just didn't occur to me that he didn't remove the plugs at that time. He was also having a serious no-start issue for about a month before I got it (valve timing), and in the process of trying to fix that he put in a new fuel pump, ect..... I can't beleive that he didn't try to shotgun plugs at the thing to get it started. I'm stuck in that horrible middle ground of an extremely major mechanical overhaul that was done by an amature and I'm trying to figure out what he did right, what he did wrong, and what he didn't do at all. Had I bought the car from anyone else either damaged or in running condition I would have just replaced the plugs and wires on general principle. But I don't want to redo things he already did. Although I'm finding that most of the stuff he did was done so poorly that I'm probably going to be doing it again anyway. At least the head gaskets seem ok - not using coolant and my temp is dead center GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 Don't forget the antiseize. It sucks to pull the threads out of an otherwise good head. Yep - got the copper anti-seize out for this job. Turbo with no intercooler = HOT. The copper has higher heat resistance than the nickle. The two rear plugs were harder to get out but luckily nothing stripped and the new ones went in fine. Also gooped up the boots with a generous amount of silicone electrical grease. Keeps out water and corrosion. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDave Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 I'm stuck in that horrible middle ground of an extremely major mechanical overhaul that was done by an amature and I'm trying to figure out what he did right, what he did wrong, and what he didn't do at all. GD Oh man I know exactly what you're saying. There is a nice looking RX for sale near me for cheap. The engine is out of it and it is partially torn down. I figure it blew a hg and when they saw the cracks in the heads and got a machine shop estimate they quit. Sounds like a deal! But my gut keeps telling me it can't be that simple. Don't go look at it. Don't even call the guy. It's been hard, real hard not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 But my gut keeps telling me it can't be that simple. Don't go look at it. Don't even call the guy. It's been hard, real hard not to. You should get it anyway. My SS was delivered to me on a flat-bed. Covered in dust and leaves, two flat tires, ill-fitting exhaust, and the hood popped up because the engine wasn't in the cross-member. Dead battery and wouldn't run even when I charged it. It sat mocking me from the side of the garage for the last 6 months. I hadn't the time or the resources to tinker just then. It cost more than the car was worth to put it on the road again - the kid I got it from spent over $4,000 on the car, replacement engine, etc. It hundred-dollar billed him into a hole from which I had to rescue him by trading him my (nice) 94 GT wagon for his "project" that he never got to drive. In the end.... TODAY it was all worth it . For the first time in 4 years the car ran like it was meant to when Subaru designed it. It moves with purpose I'm tellin ya! Once I clean some loose ends up and install some safety gauges and meters I'll be ready to put on some of my go-fast parts that my tax return bought GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 awesome, EJ22T-ness at your feet! It's fixed. I'm not going to make any excuses because I should have checked these things. It was the plugs and wires after all. Brain - you called it and I shot you down. had you covered on the first reply!how's the ignition stuff GD?.............EJ engines with problematic ignition wires are nothing new to me (even brand new wires). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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