Doug_ATX Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Well the BRAT (83 4spd d/r) made its first long distance trip this week, hooray! It turned in a respectable 26mpg over a 200mi distance. The problem is during the drive I noticed a slight wobble in the steering (not just the steering wheel) while accelerating. As the drive continued, the wobble became more and more pronounced and sometimes would get scary bad. I thought I had a blowout at one point because the vibrations and wobble was so bad, and the vehicle pulled badly to the right. I nursed her the rest of the way, although strangely enough it seemed more stable above 60mph. When I would hit any rough pavement, it would tend to bring on the wobble and pull to the right, although this was not repeatable every time. Now, when I make a tight parking lot turn, I hear clicking and car behaves like it is in 4wd (binds and lurches). This is my first car with FWD or 4WD, but I'm assuming the clicking is the CV joints...but this seems unlikely the culprit of all these problems alone. Also, the steering wheel pulls a good 10-15 degrees side to side while accelerating (more pronounced at low speeds), and almost gives a feeling of the drivetrain slipping, but only on one side. I pulled off the front wheels, and beside noticing the driver side outer tie rod is total junk and in need of replacing (pic below ) the axle boots are in remarkably good shape. Once again this is my first FWD experience so if I get some terms mixed up/wrong please correct me. There is fluid accumulated on the passenger side steering knuckle from a small tear in the boot (pic below from above the boot) With the car up on jackstands I put the car in 1st to see if anything was obviously wrong. I noticed the the passenger side wheel isn't turning. It was bumping forward slightly, and if I help it around it would turn a time or two then stop again. Is this normal? Could there be something in axle assembly that has gone bad and allowing just the passenger side to slip excessively? This might explain the wobble and the tendency for the pull to the right maybe. In my searches I read a lot of mention of the double offset joint being a culprit of subaru steering problems, could this be me? If so how hard is the doj to replace? Can it even be replaced independent of the axles? My fine haynes manual makes the removal of the axle from the steering knuckle an impossible task without a "special tool" (to me that almost always sounds like needlenose pliers, flathead screwdriver, and/or hammer). Anyhow sorry for the long post, but this is now my only transportation and I want to get it back on the road asap. Thanks in advance for any help! By heckler, shot with FinePix A340 at 2009-06-13 By heckler, shot with FinePix A340 at 2009-06-13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjw Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Man,that tie rod is DONE! To even leave the driveway with that is insane. After you get that replaced,make sure the castle nut on the wheel end of the cv axle is good and tight. Judging by the condition of the tie rod end,you should really inspect the entire front end of your Brat and all the related steering components. That thing about one wheel not turning with both off the ground,thats normal. Edited June 13, 2009 by markjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman18 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yeah that's not good!! I had one come apart when I was backing out of my driveway!! I was lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_ATX Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 Man,that tie rod is DONE! To even leave the driveway with that is insane. After you get that replaced,make sure the castle nut on the wheel end of the cv axle is good and tight. Judging by the condition of the tie rod end,you should really inspect the entire front end of your Brat and all the related steering components. That thing about one wheel not turning with both off the ground,thats normal. Oh, dont worry...the BRAT suspension is now getting my full attention. When I pulled off the wheel and saw that tie rod I got an adrenaline rush, as if I had just cheated death. Hopefully the tie rods are the entire problem, and replacing them will fix the wobble...I'm skeptical though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Replace the ball joints as well. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) I won't address the ball joints and tie rod end, that's obvious. Make sure that both castle nuts on the front wheels are TIGHT; I believe the torque requirement is 145 ft-lb, altho tighter than that is okay. I would be suspicious of the axle with the torn boot; looks like the CVJ (outer) and that could account for the clicking noise on hard lock turning. Removing the axle and regreasing the CVJ and replacing the torn boot should be done sooner than later. I'm not so sure that only one wheel turning with the front end off the ground is so normal. Tightening the castle nut might just solve that. I don't believe the inner (DOJ) of the axles are the cause of any of your symptoms. Edited June 14, 2009 by edrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_ATX Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 (edited) I replaced the tie-rod, and as I suspected the problem persists. The sound from the axle (more the passenger side, but also the driver) is more of a severe grinding sound than a simple click. and the steering is still affected to a certain degree. Can a outer CVJ really cause that much disorder? I've heard guys say they run on bad CVJs for thousands of miles, with only a clicking nuisance. I haven't taken it to highway speeds to check for the really scary wobble, but the low speed side-to-side shimmy on acceleratrion is still there. This condition developed from imperceptable to unacceptable in 200 miles. I cant believe its the balljoint. Do you really think that its not the CV or DOJs? The grinding sound seems like it must be somewhere in the axle...I know you cant hear the sound, but maybe I will attempt to make a recording and post a link. Thanks again for the responses! I did repack the CVJ with the torn boot, and it had no effect on the behavior. Edited June 14, 2009 by Doug_ATX comment on repacking the CVJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratgrl Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 The problem is during the drive I noticed a slight wobble in the steering (not just the steering wheel) while accelerating. As the drive continued, the wobble became more and more pronounced and sometimes would get scary bad. I thought I had a blowout at one point because the vibrations and wobble was so bad, and the vehicle pulled badly to the right. I nursed her the rest of the way, although strangely enough it seemed more stable above 60mph. When I would hit any rough pavement, it would tend to bring on the wobble and pull to the right, although this was not repeatable every time. Hi Doug; MY 1980 BRAT went haywire like this on my way to work one morning. Left the house just fine, 2o miles down the road it was like someone was grabbing the wheel and pulling it hard to the right and it was wobbling and weaving. It ended up being my left CV axle. I'm not sure that your car has the same issue, but I had the axle changed and the problem went away. I had been noticing a slight clicking for a month or so before this, but it was real weird how it went kablooey all at once, with no real warning. Don't know of your's is the same thing, but I thought I would toss in my two pennies worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 At this point I wouldn't suspect a CV either. If anything it would be a DOJ that would cause that much issue. BUT - the axle itself generally doesn't cause any "pulling" of the steering like you describe. In extreme cases it might be possible but I've only exprienced one that did that and it was pretty obviously the DOJ that had failed. When they go in that manner they have a "lumpy" feel - feels like you are driving over softballs under one tire..... Replace your tie-rod ends and ball joints. Check the INNER tie rod joints as well. And check the steering u-joint for binding and have a look at the rag joint - that can cause strange steering issues as well. The VW beetle urethane rag joint replacements are a direct bolt in for the stock rubber one's. Then road test it and see what you find. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7point62fmj Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 It is not the wheel berrings but.... You might as well take it all apart and replace them. As you do this you wil be taking apart pretty much every thing that you need to get to any ways. At least I did the first time I did mine. Now I dont need to take it apart so much. I used the HTKYSA to do it. Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4x4_Welder Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 When the axle failed in my Hatch, it did the same thing- massive vibrations, pulling the steering wheel, etc. It was the outer CV joint, starting to seize up. I just pulled the front axles, left the cups bolted into the hubs of course, and ran it in 4wd as a rear wheel drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_ATX Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Its almost totally undrivable now. She almost didn't make it back from the corner store this morning. Whatever is going bad, is getting worse fast. The grinding/screeching sounds got some good looks from pedestrians and other drivers:confused: The CVJ on that side is the one with the torn boot, so if its seizing I wouldn't be surprised, and it would explain a great many things. I need to get new axles methinks. Is there a big price difference between MWE and Subaru axles? Id call them but everyone is closed today. Does anyone have any words of wisdom for the axle removal/install? I have the HTKYSA book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Last set I got from EMPI are excelent quality. Cheaper than MWE or Subaru. I think I payed $58 each or so. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_ATX Posted June 14, 2009 Author Share Posted June 14, 2009 Do you remember what chain carried the EMPI axles? I've just read so much bad stuff about the mcparts axles that I'm cautious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Do you remember what chain carried the EMPI axles? I've just read so much bad stuff about the mcparts axles that I'm cautious. EMPI is a VW aftermarket brand that has (in the last couple years) brached out into manufacturing aftermarket parts for other makes. One of their recent product line additions is CV shaft line for nearly every application around. You can order them through any EMPI dealer. Check out their web site - maybe they will have some suppliers in your area. I get mine from a local import parts house called "Discount Import Parts". They only have two locations in Portland Oregon though I'm afraid. I was impressed with the quality of manufacturing on them. I've had a set in my hatch for a couple years now. I replaced the engine mounts and tranny mounts at the same time as I would sugest you do. Bad mounts will destroy axles in short order. Check out www.rockauto.com for mounts. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted June 15, 2009 Share Posted June 15, 2009 (edited) Does anyone have any words of wisdom for the axle removal/install? I have the HTKYSA book. Check the USRM for axle removal tips. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=75786 Edited June 15, 2009 by edrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_ATX Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Alright the axle is out, and was surprisingly straightforward. The passenger CVJ (with the torn boot) was totally dry and some of the bearings were flat spotted, I'm amazed it even turned! My new problem is finding someone to press the knuckle off/on of the axle. Everyone I call seems to have no idea what I'm talking about, or has no interest in doing such a "side job" at their automotive or machine shop. Is there a name for the press that is required for to remove it? Maybe if I ask if they have the specialty press, rather than if they will press it out alone-- Then I can just show up with the axle and negotiate in person (without getting to rape me on the entire axle replacement.) I would have had the entire job done in 2 hours but instead I've spent an extra hour on the phone cold calling auto/machine shops... and now its after 6pm-- now its a 2 day job...ohwell The BRAT is by far the easiest vehicle to work on I've ever owned. It's the simple things like keeping the socket sizes generally the same, etc... but having this knuckle pressed on and off kinda sucks imo :-\ Thanks for all the help so far... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 No press is required - just drive the axle shaft out of the bearings with a dead blow. If the fit is more than a dead-blow can handle then I'll thread the nut on and use a brass hammer. Just don't hit it without the nut in place and flush with the shaft or you will damage the threads. *If* you were going to use a press - there is no "special" press involved. It's just a normal shop press - you have to properly block up the knuckle so the press can get a straight shot at the axle but that's pretty easy with some peices of wood. We keep 1x, 2x, and 4x around in various lengths for such purposes. I have never done it though because I never remove the knuckle from the car - too much hassle. Just drive out the axle and pull the new one in. The fitment is quite loose actually. Often they slip in by hand. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_ATX Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 I ended up paying a machine shop 5 bucks to press it off, I just couldn't get it to release. Got it all back together and other than the clicking from the other side (a prelude to a similar fate methinks) she drives great . I did however try to drive the DOJ spring pin in the wrong direction at first I guess reading the procedure would have been smart. Anyhow, thanks for all the help everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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