Hocrest Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 First some background, 97 Legacy w/2.2. Last year I swapped in a 2.2 out of 96 from the junkyard. Last week she stopped running and I found out that the bottom idler bearing were shot and the cam belt was way off. I got another idler, timing belt and went to set the timing. I could line up the passenger cam at 12:00, but I couldn't get the crank and driver's side cam to line up, there was a definite contact that was preventing the cam from turning to 12 when the drivers cam was at 12. I assumed there was a valve sticking, so I decide to swap in a set of heads I had at home. Once I get the heads off, I can tell that there was contact with the intake valves and the pistons. I get the "new" heads on and they act the same way. I still can't get the crank and the cam to both line up at 12:00. Some pics; While I had the heads off I confirmed that the front pistons were at TDC while the crank mark was at 12:00. More pics can be found here; Why can I not line up everything properly?? Any thoughts? I didn't think to measure while the heads were off, should the pistons be flush with the cylinder walls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Did you make a few complete revolutions with the crank and observe the pistons? I assume that you've done this before? And that you are positive of what marks you're using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 maybe the 96 2.2 was really a 97?????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 You need to turn the crank off tdc, then position the cams, then put the crank at tdc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 maybe the 96 2.2 was really a 97?????? I don't know when the actual cutoff is by model and build date but it certainly sounds like it's interference. Then again perhaps the engine had already been swapped in the car in the JY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 "I could line up the passenger cam at 12:00," because the crank was down a bit, "but I couldn't get the crank and driver's side cam to line up" because the crank being turned made it hit the second head's valve, which prevented the second cam being turned. Changing heads didn't prevent the same thing happening again unfortunatly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hocrest Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Did you make a few complete revolutions with the crank and observe the pistons? I assume that you've done this before? And that you are positive of what marks you're using? When the heads were off, I spun the crank through many revolutions. Yeah, I've done TB's before. I know that all "-" marks should be at 12:00. Correct?? You need to turn the crank off tdc, then position the cams, then put the crank at tdc. That's the problem, I can't. If I set the crank first I can't get the cam to line up, If I set the cam first, I can't get the crank to line up??? I don't know when the actual cutoff is by model and build date but it certainly sounds like it's interference. Then again perhaps the engine had already been swapped in the car in the JY. Yeah, I can't be sure, But as far as I can tell the "interference engines" have the new style of tensioner and different cam wheels? Even so, I checked the FSM's for 99 and they want all the marks lined up at 12:00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I still have a few engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hocrest Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I still have a few engines. Yeah I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Turn the crank till it's a bit off tdc. Turn one cam till both front valves are shut. Turn the other head till both front valves are shut. Look to see which marks are nearly lined up and move the cams to those marks. Turn the crank to tdc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 i disagree, i think.... you see, even if it's interference, something is wrong. interference EJ22's are easy as pie to do timing belts on, set cams and crank and install. that he's having issues like this points to something more ominous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Like using the wrong marks perhaps? I agree, it should be simple. If there had been a bent valve the first time then it should have been cured with new heads, unless the new ones were bent already, or have been bent in the mean time. As I read the initial post he set the crank before the second cam was in position. That could have bent a valve even if it hadn't been bent running with the belt out of alignment. You'd hope though, that the new heads would have been turned a little more cautiously. Edited July 22, 2009 by Log1call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 i disagree, i think.... you see, even if it's interference, something is wrong. interference EJ22's are easy as pie to do timing belts on, set cams and crank and install. that he's having issues like this points to something more ominous. I agree. That's why I asked if he had successfully done one. Rather than my usual response to use dots and hask marks rather than arrows and such and going down that road. Perhaps he installed a used enigne and didn't put a new belt on it? If he did I bet he won't do that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Dave is quite well versed in subarus, it is highly unlikely he is using the wrong marks. Not sure what the deal is. You swapped heads but retained cams? Is it possible something is wrong with the cam itself? Doesn't make sense but I don't know what else to make of this. If it's only appearing to be one piston/cylinder then I'd begin to expect somethign other than the block...heads replaced....so i'm tempted to look at the cams, though I can't suggest what to look for. Maybe you have another cam you can throw in it to test? Timing belt is the right one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hocrest Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Dave is quite well versed in subarus, it is highly unlikely he is using the wrong marks. Not sure what the deal is. You swapped heads but retained cams? Is it possible something is wrong with the cam itself? Doesn't make sense but I don't know what else to make of this. If it's only appearing to be one piston/cylinder then I'd begin to expect somethign other than the block...heads replaced....so i'm tempted to look at the cams, though I can't suggest what to look for. Maybe you have another cam you can throw in it to test? Timing belt is the right one? No I swapped the entire heads. Including the cam wheels. There are marks on all 4 pistons. With the heads off the valves don't appear bent, they open and close evenly. I'm wondering if the engine that I swapped in had the block shaved or different pistons put in?? If so they would have had to have the timing set differently?? I know it seems odd, but I don't have any other ideas? Edited July 22, 2009 by Hocrest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hocrest Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Turn the crank till it's a bit off tdc. Turn one cam till both front valves are shut. Turn the other head till both front valves are shut. Look to see which marks are nearly lined up and move the cams to those marks. Turn the crank to tdc. The passenger side (right) cam does have all valves closed with the mark lined up. If I turn the drivers cam to close the valves, won't it be pointing at 6:00? What are the left valves supposed to be doing when the crank is at 12:00?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 If the heads get shaved too much they start to give trouble with over-compression and knocking causing trouble so I'd doubt it is that. The cam timing wouldn't get changed because of a block or head shave either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hocrest Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 If the heads get shaved too much they start to give trouble with over-compression and knocking causing trouble so I'd doubt it is that. The cam timing wouldn't get changed because of a block or head shave either. But it could cause things to hit where they wouldn't normally. When I had it apart, I didn't measure but it seemed that the pistons were flush with the end of the cylinders. Later when I looked at the shortblock in my basement with a bad bearing, it seems that the pistons stay recessed by about 1/32" or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 "If I turn the drivers cam to close the valves, won't it be pointing at 6:00?" Hmmm, I'm not sure, I'd have to go pull one apart to check. The general idea though is to use simple observation of the cams, and a knowledge of the ignition timing, to figure which cam should be where next etc... and ensure the timing is correct. I have had to use similar methods before and it works generally. If you put a screwdriver between the cam and rocker you might be able to lift the valves a little and check how far they can move before hitting the heads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) The intake valve should not be opening at TDC. TDC refers to the number one cylinder being at the top of the compression stroke. All of the valves for the number one should be closed, and they should not be opening until the cam has moved about 1/4 turn. And it should be the exhaust valves opening next, not the intake. So your cams are off by a half turn. The cam timing wouldn't get changed because of a block or head shave either. As a matter of fact, it would, slightly. Shaving off the block or heads would essentially move the cams inwards closer to the crank. The distance between the teeth on the timing belt is what 3/8"? There's no way you can cut 3/8" off the block, or the heads, probably not even if you did both. So the number of teeth on the belt between the crank and cam pulleys would be the same, but the distance from the crank to the cam would be shorter, the only way to account for that would be to turn the top of the pulley away from the engine. It would change the angle of the cam slightly, which would then change when it opens and closes the valves. A slight change, yes. Is it enough to matter though? That in itself would probably not make enough difference to let the piston hit the valve, but the head/block being shaved might. Edited July 22, 2009 by Fairtax4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 have you removed the crank sprocket to see if the key way is good on it and the crank?? interference engines will 'interfere' by definition, what is screwy is this one is interfering when supposedly 'lined up' for a new belt. what if you turned the cams 180 degrees and the crank 90 degrees, hang the belt and then turn it over by hand looking for interference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hocrest Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 have you removed the crank sprocket to see if the key way is good on it and the crank?? interference engines will 'interfere' by definition, what is screwy is this one is interfering when supposedly 'lined up' for a new belt. what if you turned the cams 180 degrees and the crank 90 degrees, hang the belt and then turn it over by hand looking for interference. Yeah I checked the keyway on the crank, no wear at all. I also checked the keyway on the old and new cams, all are good. Wouldn't it be 90 on the cams and 180 on the crank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Are you using the correct mark on the Crank pulley? The Keyway should be straight down at TDC, and the little mark on the ear on the cran k pulley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hocrest Posted July 26, 2009 Author Share Posted July 26, 2009 OK, I'm an idiot... This post; Are you using the correct mark on the Crank pulley? The Keyway should be straight down at TDC, and the little mark on the ear on the cran k pulley. and a review of the Haynes manual instead of the FSM showed that I need to line it up to the dot on the crank pulley and not the arrow... I've done the timing many more times on the SVX than I have on the Legacy, and on the EG33, you use the arrow... Reviewing this thread now, I did see another post about using the dot and not the arrow... Thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 since ANYONE can make this mistake, i guess this means we should have even more sympathy and understanding for newbies who make it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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