98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) Engine: 98 EJ25, manual Just got done replacing the bad head and HG, then reinstall, engine won't start. Starter only sounds normal for less than a second during cranks, it has a high pitch sound. It is turning the crank though. Can smell gas out of the tailpipe. Rechecked all connections at least a dozen times. Everything is connected that I can see. I checked the engine-battery ground and chassis ground, all are ok. The fuses seem to be ok. The timing belt was installed correctly, all cam sprocket aarows were at the 2:00 position, the sprocket marks lined up correctly, the crank sprocket was at TDC. All teeth were counted while lined up. Rechecked all connections again all seem ok. Hopefully didn't fry the ECM. Doesn't seem to be getting any spark, but not sure. Since the last head siezed due to cam failure and was oil starved I kept all the 3 main harness connectors behind the passenger side engine-trans. , coilpack, and crank sensor unplugged this time then cranked over the engine to build oil pressure. I loosened the 3 valve cover bolts and oil poured out (a good sign). When I was cranking the starter initially, it seemed to start normally at first then it went into the high pitch sound. Has anyone seen this problem before? The starter is working well and is cranking the engine over. Keep in mind I just got done changing out the right side head and gasket which ended up in a failure last time due to oil starvation on the right side cylinder head. Never did find anything conclusive on that. So on the last round before the cam siezure and engine reinstall it started right up, then quit. It has to either be a connection problem or I fried the ECM. Do I need to buck up for an OBD2 tester? Any clues? Edited August 6, 2009 by 98sub2500leg Left out detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 i'm betting your timing belts are lined up incorrectly. 2 oclock? why are you lining them up at 2 oclock? the timing marks are all at 12 noon, you should use those. (6 oclock for the two lower cam sprockets). any check engine codes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Re re re re re re check the timing belt. 99% of the time a no start after a timing belt install is well, a timing belt. www.endwrench.com archives engine - then look up timing belt. SMell of raw gas tells me the valve timing is off. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 i'm betting your timing belts are lined up incorrectly. 2 oclock? why are you lining them up at 2 oclock? the timing marks are all at 12 noon, you should use those. (6 oclock for the two lower cam sprockets). any check engine codes? The aarows on the cams are at the 2:00 position when the intake single marks are at at 12:00, the intake or upper cam double marks are then aligned at 6:00, also in line with the lower cam double marks at 12:00. I read the last post about 2 weeks ago and am now having second thoughts on the crank sprocket, but I know I double and triple checked it. I also made a red paint mark lined up at the top and made sure it was also there (identical to the last reinstall). I haven't got the code reader yet. I will no doubt be getting one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Code reader only works if the car has started. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 Re re re re re re check the timing belt. 99% of the time a no start after a timing belt install is well, a timing belt. www.endwrench.com archives engine - then look up timing belt. SMell of raw gas tells me the valve timing is off. nipper I had the article printed out from before, there was a great write up with great color pics. Yeah the more I have been thinking about it the more I believe it to be the timing. Currently trying to remove the front cover this time without having to pull the engine the 3rd time (yikes!). Got the rad. fans out but only have a 22mm long socket only a short socket will work without removing the radiator. I am resigned to the socket wrench with extension jammed to the ground while cranking the starter. If there is a better way let me know as that seems to barbaric of a method for removing the crank bolt but on the other hand a better option than removing the engine again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I had the article printed out from before, there was a great write up with great color pics. Yeah the more I have been thinking about it the more I believe it to be the timing. Currently trying to remove the front cover this time without having to pull the engine the 3rd time (yikes!). Got the rad. fans out but only have a 22mm long socket only a short socket will work without removing the radiator. I am resigned to the socket wrench with extension jammed to the ground while cranking the starter. If there is a better way let me know as that seems to barbaric of a method for removing the crank bolt but on the other hand a better option than removing the engine again. Internal Combustion is barbaric. WHat you are doing is using leverage and a motor to save effort, and that is smart, and accepted (and may save your knuckles) nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 Code reader only works if the car has started. nipper Thanks, you just saved me some $$. Although I read a while ago a post from a guy who had swapped his blown motor with a Japan engine, and it didn't work. He said he hooked up his OBD2 and got several different error codes. I can't remember the exact problem though. I thought it was a ground strap issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Breaker bar to over by the battery tray to use the starter to loosen crank bolt. You wouldn't be the first to put a belt on wrong. What sucks is that it's interference so you could have more damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 Internal Combustion is barbaric. WHat you are doing is using leverage and a motor to save effort, and that is smart, and accepted (and may save your knuckles) nipper Well, that is good news, sounds like you have done this method before. Do you just jam the cheeter (attached to the wrench against the ground then crank the starter? Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Thanks, you just saved me some $$. Although I read a while ago a post from a guy who had swapped his blown motor with a Japan engine, and it didn't work. He said he hooked up his OBD2 and got several different error codes. I can't remember the exact problem though. I thought it was a ground strap issue. On crankup you will get error codes, but they wont be valid, or they will be old codes. The car doesnt expect any valid data till it actually starts. Code readers are very handy to have, but sometimes they are overkill. No starts on modern engines usually are easy tofind, as opposed to the ever dreaded intermittent stall. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 Breaker bar to over by the battery tray to use the starter to loosen crank bolt. You wouldn't be the first to put a belt on wrong. What sucks is that it's interference so you could have more damage. Hi Dave, Yeah I'm hoping not. Without a doubt the cam sprockets were in the right position and I remember rechecking the crank 3x, but still want to check it When hand cranking the crank sprocket by hand, it doesn't sound right, but it maybe just the oil and compression (I don;t know). It does rotate and it has compression where you would expect it. I have to head into town tomorrow and get a short 22m socket to do this. Thanks for responding. I determined to get this thing running again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 On crankup you will get error codes, but they wont be valid, or they will be old codes. The car doesnt expect any valid data till it actually starts. Code readers are very handy to have, but sometimes they are overkill. No starts on modern engines usually are easy tofind, as opposed to the ever dreaded intermittent stall. nipper Good info to know. Can I use a standard 22m socket or will it shatter? I just located a standard at the local supplier, thats all they have. Also, could I have fried the ecm? How can I tell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Good info to know. Can I use a standard 22m socket or will it shatter? I just located a standard at the local supplier, thats all they have. Also, could I have fried the ecm? How can I tell? I always had a freind hold the wrench in place while I cranked the car, but you can do it solo. I've never needed a hardened socket for this. No you didnt fry the ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 I always had a freind hold the wrench in place while I cranked the car, but you can do it solo. I've never needed a hardened socket for this. No you didnt fry the ECU. Well, my cheeter pipe was about 2', just chopped it down to about 15" or so on the chop saw. Dave also saved me a trip to town. Wasn't sure where to put the bar, my 22mm long fits fine. Got the bar in place, battery reconnected, should have an answer soon. Man alive I sure hope there isn't valve damage. Be back soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 As Nipper said impact is probably not necessary. I just use my deep impacts on sizes this large. Infact I use a deep impact and breaker bar to break the bolt using the starter every so often. Don't forget cardboard on the radiator area! I have had tools made for both sizes (2.2's and early 2.5's like 95 maybe 96) and 2.5 97 and up it seems to hold the harmonic balancer. I may be offering some for sale. He's making me prototypes now. The current ones have long handles. If he makes them for a breaker bar shipping in much less. The originals are getting beat up (especially the 2.2 one) so I'm having a different machine shop make me a different design. I worry more about installing them tight since that is more difficult. The fallout can be bad. I recently had a thread about a car I had purchased that had a loose harmonic balancer and other damage with pics. Looking like I gotta decide whether to go the Patent or Copyright route on a tool I had designed for VW's. Anyone here an expert on this? Or anyone ever partner with Lisle? Come to think of it I may start a thread in off topic. Hope it all works out well and nothing was damaged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 Yes it off, somehow there was another pain mark on that sprocket and it got aligned to that mark. The key I should have paid attention to is keyway at 6:00, round mark at TDC and the small tiny aarow should align to 2:00 with the cam aarows (not cam marks). Well shoot hopefully there is no valve damage, but that would be probably hoping for too much. well see tomorrow. Thanks again for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I have several sets of heads that I'd sell if you can't find any locally. Don't know what shipping would be though. All I have heard run. Some on engines with HG issues, some on engines with bearing issues. 96 through 98's I believe with a lot of 97 2.5's. But I won't have the time to pull any until next week if you'd like them. I usually don't pull good heads until they are sold. Better protected that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 As Nipper said impact is probably not necessary. I just use my deep impacts on sizes this large. Infact I use a deep impact and breaker bar to break the bolt using the starter every so often. Don't forget cardboard on the radiator area! I have had tools made for both sizes (2.2's and early 2.5's like 95 maybe 96) and 2.5 97 and up it seems to hold the harmonic balancer. I may be offering some for sale. He's making me prototypes now. The current ones have long handles. If he makes them for a breaker bar shipping in much less. The originals are getting beat up (especially the 2.2 one) so I'm having a different machine shop make me a different design. I worry more about installing them tight since that is more difficult. The fallout can be bad. I recently had a thread about a car I had purchased that had a loose harmonic balancer and other damage with pics. Looking like I gotta decide whether to go the Patent or Copyright route on a tool I had designed for VW's. Anyone here an expert on this? Or anyone ever partner with Lisle? Come to think of it I may start a thread in off topic. Hope it all works out well and nothing was damaged. Well, it worked like a charm. I used my 3/4" black pipe cheeter bar over my 1/2" drive wrench. Had to use the chopsaw to chop off about 10". On the copyright issue, I see a lot of patents are applied for then posted on the internet to prove who had designed what and when. Used to be approx $5k for patent costs(attorney, ect..), that was about 15-20 years ago, not sure what it is now. I'm not even sure you actually need an attorney these days. You may be able to apply yourself then post your design. I also there is some waiting period to see if anyone challanges it, not sure how long that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 When you redo this IGNORE ALL ARROWS!!!! Hash marks only!! And the dot on the front of the crank with the matching hash mark on the back. But just remember hash marks - ignore all else. Hash marks on the crank, on the block by the crank sensor, cam sprockets, timing belt covers. All arrows lead straight to hell it seems. Your personal temporary hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 For reference. Faster than normal cranking means no compression. The cams being off by just a few teeth shouldn't be enough to get valves crashing into pistons, but it depends on how far they were off. Hopefully you got lucky with this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 I shouldn't have referenced the aarows in the post it makes it confusing. I did have the cams in place, but the crank position was incorrect reletive to the cam positions. I have the belt repositioned, the timing covers back on, crank pulley in place. What is the best method to re-tighten the crank bolt? Also, should I disconnect the crank position sensor first, then use the starter to crank the engine to make sure there are no major noises, issues before attempting to start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I have the belt repositioned, the timing covers back on, crank pulley in place. What is the best method to re-tighten the crank bolt? Automatic: pull the access cover on the bellhousing. Wedge a large screwdriver into the hole in the torque converter and hold it firmly. Then torque the crap out of the Crank bolt. Manual: Put it in 4th or 5th gear, set the E-brake or have an assistant hold the brakes. Then torque the crap out of the Crank bolt. Also, should I disconnect the crank position sensor first, then use the starter to crank the engine to make sure there are no major noises, issues before attempting to start? I would just crank it around by hand a few times to see if it all feels smooth. then fire it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98sub2500leg Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) Ok, everything is back together, engine crank sounds normal now when cranking the starter. I don't hear any obvious abnormal sounds. I am back to the original thread "engine won't start". The 1st time I pulled the engine then restarted it after re-installation it started up on the second crank to my amazement. For an update this is the second time around on the same job. The 1st time the cam siezed , shattered sprocket and ruined TB. Pulled the engine again, replaced cylinder head & gasket, this is the 2nd reinstall. Hand cranking the crank I can feel normal compression. The check engine light is on. Something tells me I'm not getting spark. Edited August 6, 2009 by 98sub2500leg clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 check your crank and cam position sensors, especially the harnesses. Check to make sure nothing is damaged, also same for the CTS. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.