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Front end grip?


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18 replies to this topic

#1 Uberoo

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 02:59 PM

I went wheeling yesterday with a bunch of different vehicles in the snow up in mountains.Sadly I teneded to stay at the end of the pack so action shot opportunities were pretty few and far in between. I got some picks of the group when we all went and stopped for lunch but nothing other than that.The only "action" shot was of a heep cherokee on 30's pulling out a stuck stock ford truck on 31's.

 

I am pleased to say that the subaru did awesome.There was this hill that was about 1/8 mile in length that a few of the vehicles in our group couldn't make it up.either they sunk in and got bogged down or they didn't have the horsepower to keep the tires spinning all the way up it.The only things that made it in our group were running big wide tires aired down to the teens(I aired the tires down from 15 psi highway to 8 psi in the front and 4-5 in the back).At one point the stock cherokee on bald 30" super swampers tried it and failed,so they backed down and said they wanted to see the subaru do it.I was in hi range on the subaru box and 4lo on the nissan box and I just SPRINTED up the hill.The subaru didn't sink in the snow at all and I had no shortage of power so I blitzed up the hill at the top of 2nd gear at 30-35 mph(according to them,I wasn't paying any attention to the instrument cluster).I showed them all how its done.That was the only time I wished someone was there to videotape that because it was awesome and very fun.

 

anyway toward the end of day the snow got alot softer,and the front end started to sink in alot more.Once that frontend got in snow just a little too deep I would be stuck,by contrast I could back into snow drifts much bigger that what would stop the front and it would do just fine.In mud I don't normally have that much insight into how everything is working.So it seemed to me that the light rear of the subaru was pushing the heavy front around,when that front end encountered to much resistance the rears couldn't supply any more traction so they just spun.

 

So I am wondering what I can do to improve the front end's grip?The rear is welded,but the tires back there are a bit worn down,while the front tires have lots of tread left even if the voids are a little close together for mud(I might open up the voids on one of the tires with a grinder or something).As far as weight goes,everything is on the front-the engine,transmission,and transfer case all have a forward weight bias.the radiator and battery,and the ecu box are all up front.The rear of the hatch has just about nothing.The rear seat and carpeting is all gone.The spare tire is back there but I haven't mounted it yet.I don't want to add weight just for sake of adding weight,I would rather remove weight from the front.So I was thinking of relocating the battery to the back,and mounting the spare tire at an angle so the battery sits under the front of it.Then I have to cut out and weld in new rear tow points because mine got ripped out.So that will add a bit of weight to rear,I am thinking of getting a gallon sized wiper fluid reservour and mounting it on the passenger side behind the seat.Any other ideas for improving front end grip or at lease making it so the front and rear loose grip at about the same time?



#2 NorthWet

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

Ground clearance.  Or drive a rear-engine/rear-drive car like a (real) VW bug.  Physics is getting the best of you.



#3 maozebong

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:50 PM

what you are experiencing sounds like the weight shifting to the back of the car when you are on the throttle.... there are a few ways of attacking that if its the case. one is having the rear sit higher than the front. another option is to put better tires up front, or just open them up more with tread knife or grinder.


Edited by maozebong, 17 February 2013 - 05:57 PM.


#4 nipper

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:16 PM

I think you may be blaiming the car for something that is far mre basic. No matter the vehical, it is all ground clearance. if there is more snow then ground under the car you will loose traction as it high ends. 



#5 monstaru

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:17 PM

Are you serious?Still no pics after all of these years!
I would been in front of the ford on 31's,thats for damn sure!

#6 Uberoo

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:59 AM

I have pics of the various rigs parked if that works for you.

 

the ford on 31's went home pretty early on the day because it kept getting stuck.So did a chevy on 44's that the 4wd worked iffy..

 

I have FWD springs in the front because they softened up the ride and allowed it to flex more,but after the EJ22 I have noticeable negative camber.So I will try putting in some 4wd springs and see if that helps any.That might be why it did so well on the hill climb,the hill was steep enough and I was on the throttle enough that maybe the weight shifted more toward the middle and balanced things out.

 

The car is lifted 8" all around so it still has the subaru rake,and with the front end sitting low its got a lot of rake.

this is on flat ground.

wheelingtrip216003_zps0aad963f.jpg


Edited by Uberoo, 18 February 2013 - 04:08 AM.


#7 UraBUS09

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:45 PM

Loving the HATCH!!!!!! :headbang:  Any more pics?! Cant wait to EJ my '84 Hatch, only 6'' of lift... But I figure with 30 or 31s should be plenty of clearance! Nice work showing 'em how its done.



#8 Uberoo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:05 AM

Heres some dirty pics of it.



#9 AKghandi

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:46 PM

that thing is so bad rump roast!

I'm no expert but if you were to add a solid rear axle it would balance things out right? like one from say a first gen RX7 GSL. 3.90 gears with a LSD rear disc and ebrake. Probably more work than you're willing but would be pretty cool to see a subie flex.



#10 Uberoo

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 04:21 PM

NEGATIVE.It is my belief that a subaru only does well offroad because it weighs next to nothing and has IFS which allows the tires to drop into ruts made by bigger vehicles without getting hung up..Besides even with 31's ground clearance under the diff on a solid axle would be sucky.



#11 AKghandi

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 05:31 PM

good point. I do enjoy the massive amount of ground clearance at the rear diff. it's just an idea that I've had in my head for a while. when I get around to building a serious wheeler it will be a t-cased rig with a rx7 rear, set up on 4 link with coil overs, just to be different.

 



#12 Uberoo

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 07:14 AM

Why the rx7 rear end anyway?If it is a 3.90 rear end you wouldn't want that for bigger tires.I'm running 4.11 front and rear(after a T-case you are no longer limited to the 3.90 ratio in the transmission)



#13 AKghandi

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

That's just the ratio they come with, so you wouldn't need to run a t-case, you could hook right to the 3.90 transmission. There are however 3.7-4.11 gear sets for them. The main reasons I want the rx7 diff, is the size of the pumpkin, available lockers/LSD's, and the width of the diff itself, a little more than 58" flange to flange. also, no more having to worry about breaking axles and stubs. From pictures of your rig it looks like the diff is inline with the axles, so you wouldn't loose too much, on level ground anyways.

 

here's one next to a shortened ford 9".

1C8ford9300w.jpg

 

 

sorry about the thread jack.


Edited by AKghandi, 24 February 2013 - 09:26 PM.


#14 Uberoo

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:40 PM

only the sought-after gsl has a limited slip.I wasn't aware of any lockers available for the first gen RX7. 2nd or 3rd gen RX7 stuff  wont work without swapping in their stuff. I have an 83 waiting for EJ22 heart transplant.



#15 AKghandi

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 06:58 PM

Well maybe not lockers, but ebay has factory and aftermarket LSD's for them. but even if you weld it, its got to be stronger than a factory subaru set up/

 

I had an 82 GSL about a year ago, didn't work out very well....
 



#16 Uberoo

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:32 PM

Maybe,maybe not.My setup is working just fine right now.I did have to mix and match parts to get rear axles that work,but...it works now.



#17 Uberoo

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:48 AM

After looking at some of the threads from the distant past it would seem that my subaru has some of the lowest ground clearance of most of the lifted subarus.I have 13.75" under the transfercase,12.25 under the rear diff,and a paltry 10.5" under the front diff all while rolling on 31's(they actually measure out to be ~29").So I think that could be a large percentage of the problems I am having.I already knew my front end had sunk down alot,I just never realized it was that bad.I bet with just the FWD ea82 springs I am dropped like 2" in the front.Come to think of it the FWD springs did drop it about 1/2" when I was just running the EA81+ T case.Adding an EJ tends to drop a car 1-1.25" on 4wd springs.So Its dropped alot.

 

DOH!!!!

 

When I made the lift blocks I dropped everything egually to minimize stress on the axles.So going off the fact that a 31" tire should raise the car roughly 4" over the stock 23" tire.I should be sitting at roughly 12.25-12.5" under the front diff. So FWD springs holding up the extra weight of an EJ22 and a nissan transfercase and a rear diff up front dropped the car roughly 2".

 

Gee I feel dumb.

 

I suppose I will check the local junkyard today(was sleeping when I realized this) and see if they have any ford tempos I can jank the front springs from..

 

Moral of the story,when something doesn't quiet go the way you plan go back and check the really simple stuff.



#18 torxxx

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:29 PM

weld the front, buy a rear steer setup for a rock bouncer and your traction issue is solved.  The hydro steering will soak up the torque steer.

 

I've been contemplating this for a while, and I dont see why it couldnt world.  the hydro ram could be modded to fit up into the stock rack location, from there its a just a matter of making a steering column to run the hydro box, and getting a hydro pump.  

 

Issues I've ran into with these cars, they are not made to be fully trash offroaded.  I beat the my 86 EA82 to living hell and back, and was constantly fixing/upgrading stuff.   Yes its cool to see a small car going places big rigs do, but IFS/IRS causes more problems then its worth.  6 inches of suspension is not near enough to keep traction specially with an open front diff.  it dont take much to lift a tire off the ground and then its all over



#19 Gloyale

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:47 PM

it dont take much to lift a tire off the ground and then its all over

 

Dual front Ebrake.






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