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Random thoughts for off road mods


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21 replies to this topic

#1 soobme

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 04:19 PM

I have a LOT of ideas banging around in my head that I thought I would share. U never know, some one might want to take one of these to compleation.
1: Using the front spindel off of a Toyota, Chevy, Nissan 4x4 w/6lug on the back of a Subaru. U would need the brakes and all, but it would give U 2 things. 6lug conversion, hubs that U can unlock( for a welded dif) and U could run a U-joint rear axle.
2: Longer rear trailing arms. Not to hard to make. Just need high angle CV's (see1&3) Would give more rear suspention travel and lift in the suspention insted of body lift.
3: flanges for 930 CV's Use on inner front, and inner and outer rear. This would give U a stronger CV that will work @ at higher angle. They could be made out of a set of stock DOJ's and the after market 930 CV flanges that are av.
I know... I'm :banana: But hey, new ideas gota come from somwhere

#2 Mike W

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 04:37 PM

If yer cooking up custom axles and run taller tires, I'd also go to a bigger diff and/or stronger stubs. You could switch the R160 stubs to the Datsun style but not sure if they're really stronger or would twist off like the Subaru style. If the whole idea is to stay with independent suspension then maybe give up on Fuji stuff and go with a Dana or whatever IFS diff and locker.

#3 TheSubaruJunkie

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 04:41 PM

Tony... your full of idea's. I dont see any reason why any of those wouldnt work, and of course they'd be better than our current setup.

-Brian

#4 soobme

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 05:00 PM

The only problems I see with the stock Subaru stuff is the DOJ's and the rear stubs on the dif. That's NOT to say that there isn't room for improvement every where. That is just the 2 BIG problems in the drive train that need help.
I wan't my car to be a big time off road car, but I don't think that the 2nd transfer case is exatly what I want. I may end up there eventualy, but not till I run some of my other ideas to conclusion.
My ideal set up is 2" body lift, and 3" suspention lift. With at least 8" of suspention travel. I think I will get there, but it may take a while.

#5 TheSubaruJunkie

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 05:25 PM

I dont see why it wouldnt be possible. You handled your car very well on our trip, and with your past experience with off-road rigs and VW's, i think you'd be the man to pull it off.

-Brian

#6 bushbasher

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 06:16 PM

There is no reason why one can't get 8 inches of suspension travel on each wheel with the stock axles. The stock rear can handle 8" travel at the shock, if you have enough lift to allow the axles to go up as much as they can go down. I took some rough measurements. With my planned 6" of lift I am making 12" travel coilovers for the back (with a strap to keep the suspension from going too far down)

In the front, With the extra 6" of space in the front I could get maybe an extra 3" with a telescopic strut block. I was also thinking of how I could make a-arms acting on the top of the strut, mounted to bars bolted across the strut towers, which could give me a full 6" more travel if there is room for the axles to go up. I just hope that my car will be road-drivable enough to get to school and back!

#7 SteelyDel

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 12:11 AM

I admire you guys' idea on making the Subaru off-road worthy just like or close to the Baja 1000 cars.
On the 930 CVs- the front stub axles from a 4WD Chevy S-10 fits like a glove. It's up to you how to adapt it to your rig (I have some brainstorming of my own on other projects)
The MCstrut is not suited for off-road (I mean like riding a dune-buggy) unless you drive 5MPH all the way:rolleyes:
My thoughts for my Brat would be double A-arms in the front and leave the trailing arms in the rear. Of course they have to be longer and wider than stock to achieve the desired suspension travel.
Leave an inch of clearance before it bottoms out and an inch on suspension rebound for the shock absorber's sake (bump stops & limiting straps would be nice).
Drive axles can be made by Sway-A-way however you want it.
Tire clearance can be done with fiberglass fenders someone here on the board can hook up with a glassman. I know it sounds expensive but it can be done, the thing is you don't have to do any R&D it's been proven and done.
NOW the question is... when, how and who?

I'll let you guys know when I start on mine.
Laters (Adam's)
DEL

#8 Mike W

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 03:36 AM

Whoohoo Del's back onboard! Glad to hear you still have the Brat and even talking about moding it. If the double A-arms pivoted more inboard than the stock ones (like say from the middle of the car,) it seems to me that the overall width could stay about the same yet really travel. I've had some wierd ideas about axles looking more like 2 piece drivelines working in conjunction with multilink front suspension. But kinda seems heavy and the steering gets complex. All my ideas, the weight seems to just keep adding up. Speaking of uptravel, most of the rock buggies I see have almost no uptravel, they sit like an inch from the bump stops. It's down travel they got tons of. Hey Del, got any good recipes for low budget long travel coilovers? Or maybe plain 'ol coil springs wouldn't be so bad, they're simple, cheap and abundant.

That Mister Rguyver up there in Canada, his extra-stretchy rear axles are the ticket for more down travel. The inboard joint on the rear axles of later model EA82 cars, they have more stretch because those axles only stretch on that one end. Install those inboard joints on both ends of an EA81 axle and you get an extra inch or so of axle stretch. Maybe that doesn't sound like much but it allows for 2-3" more down travel without tweeking the axle. I still need to field test mine, but I'm very hopefull that they'll take care of the hyperextension issue I've had due to the long shocks.

#9 Adam N.D.J.

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 03:57 AM

Woah, hey Del, long time no see. I still got my Brushguard, it saved the front end of my Turbo yesterday. (Some guy backed into the front of my car, couldn't even tell).

I'm working hard on upgrading the suspension of the older Soobs. After my last wheeling trip, I have an undying HATRED for the front struts, I mean I absolutely loath them!!! I jes got a job, and now that I'm getting back on my feet, I can fund the front end reworking. I've already got all the design plans drawn up, the measurements have been made, and everything. By this spring I will have a long arm short arm front suspension, with locking hubs.

Yeah, between me and Tony, some of the best mods for this upcoming year will prolly be coming out of Southern Oregon. That makes me think,
Hey Tony, ever thought of opening up a shop? I sure know I have. Looks like the beginning of T&A Engineering!! Oh yeah, think of the commercials! Nothing like a little T&A!! Don't you want a little T&A!!!

I better go to bed, I'm gettin all crazy now.

#10 beauregaardhooligan

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 08:26 AM

"Have T&A, will travel?"
lol

#11 soobme

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 02:34 PM

What was that about "S-10 stub axles"! They fit the 930 joint, or the soob splines?
Got some more for ya.
Datsun 510 (blue bird) U-joint rear axles! I'm thinking that I will make a hybrid front axle that uses the stock outer CV, and the slip-joint and U-joint from the 510. I will use the 510 shfts on the back.
Any one ever take mesurments from a VW rear trailing arm(IRS that is)? I'm wondering how far off they are from ours. They make 2x3 & 3x3 arms for the VW's:brow:
Lower front "A" arms are eazy, but what about GOOD coilovers insted of the struts? More travel, and stronger. Might be lighter too;)
I like cheep! It's just a mater of finding what will fit from the wreking yard with little or no modification.

#12 subynut

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 03:56 PM

What about puting the car on a toy or scout chassis? Use the ER27, the d/r 5sp folowed by a real transfer case and solid axles. U could even go as far as using the portal axles from a Unimog.

Just my 2 cents :D

#13 ByTheSea

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 04:09 PM

So when you guys are blowing rear stub shafts is it because the shaft is inherently weaker than the tranny stubs or are they just being twisted off when the axle binds? Has anybody compared the travel limits of front and rear ea-82 axles? One of my wackier thoughts lately has been to rip out the whole rear suspension and make a cradle to mount a front crossmember to. It looks to me like theres a potential 12" travel limit to the front axle (it will go like 13" + but gotta leave a little wiggle room. I"m not suggesting it will be very strong at full extension but that it will go that far. Hydraulic rear stearing in a Ru :brow: is an added benefit.

On the front, I think the long double A-Arm is great but the stearing is certainly harder as mentioned already. If you move the anchor point of the arm in from the stock location without moving the attachment point of the tie rod to the rack you induce bump stear. Somehow we'd have to make a bracket that allows moving that critical pivot point inboard. A set of asymetric lower control arms that pivot at the center of the car and a stearing box from something that uses a pitman arm might solve it. And I personally would never try to weld something like that myself . LOL

#14 Adam N.D.J.

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 04:31 PM

The rear stubs ARE weaker than the front ones. The front stubs are solid, and held in with C-clips. The rear ones are hollow and held in with a bolt, since they are hollow, there is less material there, and weaker.

As far as straight axles. I'll NEVER do it. For one, it's too easy, I can put together a straight axle system in less than a week, I've already sat down, down the measurements, and started on it. But then stopped. If you put straight axles under a Soob, it's no longer Soob, as you have taken away one of the key things that make it so unique, with straight axles, even just one, it is now just the same as EVERY other four wheel drive out there.

#15 ByTheSea

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 04:55 PM

Adam, I see your point on the straight axles but at the same time I'd tend to think that the FWD/4WD set up is probably more unique a concept than front/rear independant suspension. Am I missing something or did you figure a way to put the Nissan T-case in and not make it a primarilly RWD. Second question also. Where exactly do the rear stubs tend to break?

#16 WJM

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 04:57 PM

Amen Adam.

#17 soobme

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 08:56 PM

Yeah, a nissan rear axle is WAY TOO EAZY! And I would like to keep all the main drive train stuff Subaru on my car. Not that it's a bad idea for some one els, just not for me;)

#18 bushbasher

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 09:33 PM

is there a good place I can host pics from. I've got an mspaint-cad :D drawing I'd like to share.

#19 subynut

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 10:15 PM

But will CVs ever be as strong as a straight axle?
What ya need is the ends off a portal axle. That way you got some extra gearing to help ease the stress on the CVs and the diff's stub axles.
The other advantage of straight axles is less surface area to hit. Since we have to drop the engine/tranny to keep the cv axle angles within spec, you got all that area that's just waitin to get hit. Ya know?
Just looking at the system as a whole.

#20 Adam N.D.J.

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 10:19 PM

photos.usmb.net talk to Junkie, he can set you up with an account there.

True the FWD/4WD is pretty unique, but I opted away from that purely from my own personal reasons. I have enough power in my motor to where I don't need the super low gears. But I cut my teeth in the 4wd world on RWD trucks, and drove RWD cars for the longest time, and it grows on ya. Specially doing doughnuts, and when it comes to U-turns on gravel, way easy, jes turn the wheels and burp the throttle, instant U-turn. Actually I jes got back from wheeling. I went with an Scout 800, a toy pickup, and we had a little brodey contest, I won, hands down, all I had to do was turn the wheels and give it gas, I was spinning for days.

The rear stubs break outside the case, the ones I broke, broke where the axle pin goes through the stub, right there is the weakest point, because you have the hole going down the inside of it, plus another hole going across that one through the stub, hardly any metal in there. If the stubs were solid, and held in with C-clips like the front ones, then we prolly wouldn't have any problems with them. When I get my nissan front diff (R160 also, but has flanges the axles bolt too), I'm will be able to let everyone know how they have there stubs held in, I'm hopeing that they are better, (at least a C-clip).

#21 bushbasher

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 11:07 PM

so the datsun/nissan diff has the same splines, similar, what? I never paid much attention to previous discussions.

oh, and using 930 cv's our axles could be stronger than the average solid axle. I don't plan on doing any work on strengthening my drivetrain until I see my driving style breaking what's there already. I didn't manage to break anything on a 300+k subaru turbowagon, and I was a leadfoot (high rpm n to d slams), primarily in a very rocky/steep environment.

#22 SteelyDel

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 12:37 AM

Hello Mike, Adam & veryone
OK, let's seperate a group here there are lots of off-road activities to do.
Crawling, hi speed uphill dune ride, mud, etc.
I myself enjoy flat, curvy,woopsy, sandy,gravelly, off-road driving with an average of 40 MPH without breaking my rig.
I know that there's a lot involve than just posting it here about the basic suspension and such.
I like the Subaru suspension design because it's all independent just like the VW except the 4WD.
The main thing to do is make it bulletproff and that's why I'm posting to give my ideas and share some of my experience.
I've made 3x3 to 5x5 VW front and rear trailing arms to fellow VW Baja guys same as the SteelyDel guards I've made and still not RICH:boohoo:
OK...
The S-10 stub flange fits into the 930...........no big deal the rear suspension is out of the question. Sway-A-way makes there own in a 4130 metal and call it Microstub racers use them.
The steering will come later, whoever comes up with some weird plans.
Let's talk about this more later, I'm sure we can build one by just combining ideas.
I have to go to sleep gotta get up at 5:mad:
DEl
PS: CV axles are no better than solid ones...just the ride comfort.




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