Jump to content


Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, my lurker friend!

Welcome to Ultimate Subaru Message Board, an unparalleled Subaru community full of the greatest Subaru gurus and modders on the planet! We offer technical information and discussion about all things Subaru, the best and most popular all wheel drive vehicles ever created.

We offer all this information for free to everyone, even lurkers like you! All we ask in return is that you sign up and give back some of what you get out - without our awesome registered users none of this would be possible! Plus, you get way more great stuff as a member! Lurk to lose, participate to WIN*!
  • Say hello and join the conversation
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get automatic updates
  • Get your own profile and make new friends
  • Classifieds with all sorts of Subaru goodies
  • Photo hosting in our gallery
  • Meet other cool people with cool cars
Seriously, what are you waiting for? Make your life more fulfilling and join today! You and your Subaru won't regret it, we guarantee** it.

* The joy of participation and being generally awesome constitutes winning
** Not an actual guarantee, but seriously, you probably won't regret it!

Serving the Subaru Community since May 18th, 1998!

Guest Message by DevFuse
 

Photo
- - - - -

Coil? Ignitor in Distributor? NO fire from Disty, EA81 HELP!!!


  • Please log in to reply
15 replies to this topic

#1 Mikldom

Mikldom

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 174 posts
  • E.C NC and Tidewater, VA

Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:41 PM

84 GL 4x4

with the 2wd nippo distributor in there currently.

Started it up this morning, drove fine first 10 minutes and then DIED,, no restart, nothing.. Rotor looked a little black, so I bought brand new wires, rotor button and disty cab.. Still NOTHING.

put a screwdriver in the center wire from disty, holding it just above the radiator, no fire, nothing when cranking it.

could the coil fail? coil is/was new as of January, but it is a hitachi coil and not a nippo coil... let me explain... I had a hitachi button that was not riding in thier right and looked like it was hitting in the disty a little but, but it had been running fine, and a hitachi coil....

could the coil have burned up the ignitor inside the disty? seeing that I get NO spark at all, and if coils go bad, you usually get something, even a little, is it likely the disty is now toast?

seeing that have all new ignition components (and yes the fuse for the coil in the fuse panel is good), but a hitachi coil matched to a nippo disty, plus it was not riding in there right, is it likely the disty is bad(ignitor)?

I have coil (nippo) to put in, in the morning and the dude at advance went ahead and ordered me a new (rebuilt with warranty for 232) disty, I will try coil first, and then if still nothing, then the distributor.. don't want to spend it, and being 300 miles from home and having to get home, no time to scour junkyards for an unknown condition one, I just may have to bite the bullett.

OH,, I did have low voltage conditions all day yesterday when driving the 300 miles up here.. would only be at 10 volts under power, but when at idle and clutch pushed in, it was normal.. does that explain more?

GD,, what you think? others, please? HELP me,, I don't have much time and need to get it back home.

THANKS!!!!

/mike
mikldom@yahoo.com

#2 GeneralDisorder

GeneralDisorder

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,281 posts
  • Portland

Posted 31 March 2008 - 08:28 PM

You checked all the fuses I'm hoping?

Low voltage reading from the guage means nothing. The EA81 guages are notorious for reading incorrectly. Usually it's corrosion on the back of the cluster. If the charge indicator lamp doesn't come on, then you have more voltage comming out of the alternator than the battery has on it's own - which means (assuming a battery with no dead cells) the alternator is putting out at *least* 13 volts. See what I mean about the guage?

Did you check for power at the coil? If you aren't getting power to the coil, you'll never get anywhere with throwing parts at it.

If you are getting power to the coil, then it's either the pickup/ignitor in the distributor, or it's the coil. Running the nippon disty with the Hitachi coil isn't an excelent idea so you may have run into the failure potential of that combo. If the coil is a new Hitachi branded coil, then I would lay odds you have an ignitor failure on your hands. It's a good thing you ordered in the disty already if that's the case. Don't be too sad - that's a lot better price than I have heard quoted at some places. Warantee is nice too.

Next time you'll know to carry a spare disty/coil under the seat eh? That's one of the few things that can really make all the difference if you have an extra that far from home.

GD

#3 Mikldom

Mikldom

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 174 posts
  • E.C NC and Tidewater, VA

Posted 31 March 2008 - 10:22 PM

thats why I asked for your help and advice specifically.. you have always come through with reasoned advice.. enough of inflating your ego ;) .

coil was a hitachi compatible new and installed in Jan. 08... nippo disty was installed prior when I had other issues...

checking for power to the coil just involves sticking the multitester to the posts and checking for 12 volts when key turned on?

seeing that I get NOTHING, no spark out of the coil when sticking a screw driver in the end and holding close to the radiator, it is probably the ignitor, as the hitachi coil/nippo disty combo probably toasted it.. even tho it has ran fine since jan. with that combo, and gone 3000 miles (I know I drive the hell out of it!!!)..

I will try nippo compatible coil first, but likely the disty will be replaced... can it be anything else that causes no spark? I have checked all fuses and they are good.

Car ran fine this a.m. for 10 minutes, but died suddenly and without warning and no restart.. is it normal for them to just die like this? does the ignitor failing give you any warning?

seeing that the 4wd comes stock with hitachi, but now I have mostly nippo components, and I have read that nippo disty gives a better torque angle, I am not hurting anything by going all nippo?

thanks again for the advice and reading my long winded posts!

/mike


You checked all the fuses I'm hoping?

Low voltage reading from the guage means nothing. The EA81 guages are notorious for reading incorrectly. Usually it's corrosion on the back of the cluster. If the charge indicator lamp doesn't come on, then you have more voltage comming out of the alternator than the battery has on it's own - which means (assuming a battery with no dead cells) the alternator is putting out at *least* 13 volts. See what I mean about the guage?

Did you check for power at the coil? If you aren't getting power to the coil, you'll never get anywhere with throwing parts at it.

If you are getting power to the coil, then it's either the pickup/ignitor in the distributor, or it's the coil. Running the nippon disty with the Hitachi coil isn't an excelent idea so you may have run into the failure potential of that combo. If the coil is a new Hitachi branded coil, then I would lay odds you have an ignitor failure on your hands. It's a good thing you ordered in the disty already if that's the case. Don't be too sad - that's a lot better price than I have heard quoted at some places. Warantee is nice too.

Next time you'll know to carry a spare disty/coil under the seat eh? That's one of the few things that can really make all the difference if you have an extra that far from home.

GD



#4 hatchsub

hatchsub

    Currently Subaru-less :(

  • Members
  • 2,651 posts
  • Guilford

Posted 31 March 2008 - 10:53 PM

t

coil was a hitachi compatible new and installed in Jan. 08... nippo disty was installed prior when I had other issues...


seeing that I get NOTHING, no spark out of the coil when sticking a screw driver in the end and holding close to the radiator, it is probably the ignitor, as the hitachi coil/nippo disty combo probably toasted it.. even tho it has ran fine since jan. with that combo, and gone 3000 miles (I know I drive the hell out of it!!!)..

I will try nippo compatible coil first, but likely the disty will be replaced... can it be anything else that causes no spark? I have checked all fuses and they are good.

Car ran fine this a.m. for 10 minutes, but died suddenly and without warning and no restart.. is it normal for them to just die like this? does the ignitor failing give you any warning?

seeing that the 4wd comes stock with hitachi, but now I have mostly nippo components, and I have read that nippo disty gives a better torque angle, I am not hurting anything by going all nippo?

thanks again for the advice and reading my long winded posts!

/mike


You are probably right in assuming the combo of Hitatchi and Nippo-Denso killed something. The stock components do not like to be mixed and matched. I had a Accel superstock coil on my car for over a year and it then it died. So i put in the stock coil again and ran it that way for awhile but the stress of having had the Accel in there took out the ignitor in the distributor. To answer your question, when the ignitor goes it gives no warning, just as if the coil dies. If you know you are not getting any spark out of the coil i would replace that in the hopes that the distributor is fine. If that doesnt solve it, then replace the distributor.

Nippo-densos have a better advance curve (2wd subys) so its an upgrade of sorts over the hitachi distibutors.

#5 GeneralDisorder

GeneralDisorder

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,281 posts
  • Portland

Posted 31 March 2008 - 11:36 PM

The curve for all distributors is the same. This is the '84 FSM, but the '83 I have is the same (even simpler, it's got a single curve set).

(the bottom one is the EA81T curve).

Posted Image

GD

#6 hatchsub

hatchsub

    Currently Subaru-less :(

  • Members
  • 2,651 posts
  • Guilford

Posted 01 April 2008 - 07:46 AM

The curve for all distributors is the same. This is the '84 FSM, but the '83 I have is the same (even simpler, it's got a single curve set).

(the bottom one is the EA81T curve).

Posted Image

GD


Wow thats the first ive seen of that. Where did the rummor start that 2wd distributors have a better advance curve than 4wd then?

#7 GeneralDisorder

GeneralDisorder

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,281 posts
  • Portland

Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:53 AM

Wow thats the first ive seen of that. Where did the rummor start that 2wd distributors have a better advance curve than 4wd then?


Got me. Someone with a finely tuned seat-of-the-pants dyno I suppose. :rolleyes:

I've ben trying to dispell that myth for years.

GD

#8 Mikldom

Mikldom

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 174 posts
  • E.C NC and Tidewater, VA

Posted 01 April 2008 - 05:42 PM

OUT $230.00!!!

let me explain,, car is broke down and staying in roanoke, VA, and I must take bus back home to Elizabeth City, NC.

Got the new distributor, sliding it in, not lining up right, slide back out, did this 2 times... on the last time, it went in alright, but would not come back out!!!! and in the process of trying to get it back out, the friggin housing busted all up.. now the damn $230.00 disty is toast.. and broke all to hell and still the friggin shaft is wedged in there, and won't come out..

this does not help me, and I must get home to do some more jobs.. got the car towed to my brothers house until I can figure out what to do.

I had this happen one time before, a couple of years ago on my desert camo brat.. I remember getting under the thing and just keep hitting on it with a socket extension and a 1lb hammer, and finally worked it out, put another in, and off she went.

It just sux that everything was going great with the install, but it had to mess up and seriously. it is about 3/4 of an inch from out of the hole, and when I took the mount loose, I can see the O-ring.\

Does anybody have any suggestions? is there a way to rig something to the shaft and pull it out, instead of trying to wedge it out with prybars?

I don't want to have to pull the motor, but that maybe the next route, or, finding another wagon and transfer my equipment, lift, etc. to it.. East Coast EA81's are getting hard to find.

#9 GeneralDisorder

GeneralDisorder

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,281 posts
  • Portland

Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:46 PM

You'll wedge stuff forever and break things all day if you just try to pull or pry it straight out. Pound it back in, and carefully pull it out while TWISTING.

You would be surprised what a little twist will do with closely fitting components. I work on a lot of German made pumps at work, and the tollerances are often less than .001", and you can't break stuff because the parts are both expensive, and often weeks or months out from Germany or Switzerland. You MUST learn to be gentle with stuff - especially aluminium parts. If it doesn't slide right out, stand back and asses the situation. Larger hammers are not the solution.

As I learned from my older and wiser co-worker - "DO NOT hammer on German vacuum pumps - put the hammer down and walk slowely backwards". :lol:

I kid you not - you'll feel incredibly silly when you twist it right out of there. Same goes for EA pushrod oil pumps. You wouldn't beleive how many posts there have been in the past about breaking the oil pump trying to remove it. If you grab and twist they come right off. I've NEVER broken one, or had a distributor stuck in the block.

GD

#10 Mikldom

Mikldom

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 174 posts
  • E.C NC and Tidewater, VA

Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:54 PM

Yeah, before I started pounding the hell out of it, and the two previous removals 5 minutes prior, I was turning/twisting it as I pulled it out.. the last time, would not twist at all, but just a "hair"

now that the damn thing is destroyed how should i get it back down in the block? and not much to grab onto anymore.. I guess I can try to gently tap the top of the shaft and see if it will go back down.. and then, again, try to twist and pull it up.. amazing that it just slid in and out the two previous times (all the while twisting), but would not twist at all or come out the last time, and now the thing is destroyed.. I still may try to warranty it after I eventually get it out...

I'll keep you posted, but now I have to take the greyhound home, have my wife pick me up in the a.m., I drop her back off at work, and take the outback to my inspection tomorrow afternoon.. I have thursday off, and I finally may install the new clutch and mount the transmission back in my 2004 chevy aveo with 140k miles!!!

thanks for the information!!!

/mike


You'll wedge stuff forever and break things all day if you just try to pull or pry it straight out. Pound it back in, and carefully pull it out while TWISTING.

You would be surprised what a little twist will do with closely fitting components. I work on a lot of German made pumps at work, and the tollerances are often less than .001", and you can't break stuff because the parts are both expensive, and often weeks or months out from Germany or Switzerland. You MUST learn to be gentle with stuff - especially aluminium parts. If it doesn't slide right out, stand back and asses the situation. Larger hammers are not the solution.

As I learned from my older and wiser co-worker - "DO NOT hammer on German vacuum pumps - put the hammer down and walk slowely backwards". :lol:

I kid you not - you'll feel incredibly silly when you twist it right out of there. Same goes for EA pushrod oil pumps. You wouldn't beleive how many posts there have been in the past about breaking the oil pump trying to remove it. If you grab and twist they come right off. I've NEVER broken one, or had a distributor stuck in the block.

GD



#11 GeneralDisorder

GeneralDisorder

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 20,281 posts
  • Portland

Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:59 PM

If there's not much to grab now, drill some holes in the bits that remain and screw in some self tappers. Use them to turn/pull it out.

Pipe wrench to get it turning again? Slide hammer?

Without pics, It's hard to give good advice on your situation now. I understand it's broken, but without seeing the actual damage, I can't come up with much of a plan.

GD

#12 Mikldom

Mikldom

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 174 posts
  • E.C NC and Tidewater, VA

Posted 01 April 2008 - 09:21 PM

I'll get my twin brother to take pictures tomorrow when the sun is shining.. I will be already home... I will come up with a plan.... It is not a priority right now.. too much money and time in it for the moment, need to get the other ride fixed so I can sill work.

thanks again!!


If there's not much to grab now, drill some holes in the bits that remain and screw in some self tappers. Use them to turn/pull it out.

Pipe wrench to get it turning again? Slide hammer?

Without pics, It's hard to give good advice on your situation now. I understand it's broken, but without seeing the actual damage, I can't come up with much of a plan.

GD



#13 Mikldom

Mikldom

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 174 posts
  • E.C NC and Tidewater, VA

Posted 04 August 2008 - 08:32 PM

Started a new thread, but I thought I would finish this thread off.

the car was at my twin brothers for 3 months, finally got it 300 miles home trailering it with a diesel F250 and diesel at 4.69 a gallon (125 bux),

sat at home in the driveway for a month..

got under it today, took the oil pan cover off, took my big ball joint fork and a 12 ounce hammer and gingerly tapped on it, after hooking the fork into the shaft

and... 5 minutes later.. the $umbi(th is out!!!!

now need a known good nippo disty.. or hell, a known good hitachi is just as well as I have a good hitachi coil.... PLEASE somebody help me out and I am broke..

going from N.E. NC to Washington DC/MD this week and back.. so my options to pick it from a boneyard or somebody is pretty good.. don't have much money, but I know you guys can help me out..

Lemme know!!! and thanks!!!!

/mike
mikldom@yahoo.com

#14 Mikldom

Mikldom

    USMB is life!

  • Members
  • 174 posts
  • E.C NC and Tidewater, VA

Posted 05 August 2008 - 08:09 PM

Got Advance to warranty the other one.. they ordered me a hitachi, so all I have to do is change back to a hitachi coil (which I have)..

I will let you know how it turns out!!!

THANKS!!!!

/mike


Started a new thread, but I thought I would finish this thread off.

the car was at my twin brothers for 3 months, finally got it 300 miles home trailering it with a diesel F250 and diesel at 4.69 a gallon (125 bux),

sat at home in the driveway for a month..

got under it today, took the oil pan cover off, took my big ball joint fork and a 12 ounce hammer and gingerly tapped on it, after hooking the fork into the shaft

and... 5 minutes later.. the $umbi(th is out!!!!

now need a known good nippo disty.. or hell, a known good hitachi is just as well as I have a good hitachi coil.... PLEASE somebody help me out and I am broke..

going from N.E. NC to Washington DC/MD this week and back.. so my options to pick it from a boneyard or somebody is pretty good.. don't have much money, but I know you guys can help me out..

Lemme know!!! and thanks!!!!

/mike
mikldom@yahoo.com



#15 subiemech85

subiemech85

    SIX STAR SERVICE

  • Members
  • 2,710 posts
  • down by the river

Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:56 AM

Got Advance to warranty the other one.. they ordered me a hitachi, so all I have to do is change back to a hitachi coil (which I have)..

I will let you know how it turns out!!!

THANKS!!!!

/mike



SO, how's it going?

and what story did you tell advance?? :confused:

#16 Cougar

Cougar

    Elite Master of the Subaru

  • Members
  • 6,390 posts
  • Anchorage

Posted 22 December 2008 - 11:23 AM

When you get the replacement disty installed check for voltage on the plus and minus sides of the coil with the ignition ON. If you have voltage there then check to see if you have ignition pulses on the minus side of the coil while cranking the engine and using a test light probe. If you have pulses then you may have an ignition amp problem.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users