mnwolftrack

I called the local dealer just for kicks. They weren't too helpful. They said to call back with a VIN # because there are 3 different kinds of valve cover gaskets alone for 1998? They also said there wasn't any kind of "gasket kit" available. Strange, many other vehicle manufacturers have complete engine gasket kits and "valve regrind kits (a.k.a. all gaskets needed for head gasket jobs). I didn't see this kind of confusion on the online parts supplier sites. I'm not seeing head bolts listed online though. I'm used to replacing them and figured I'd have to on the 2.5. I'm sure it's a sticky subject (seems to be on many cars)--anyone know for sure on their re-use? I'm going to do the water pump, gasket "set" if there is one, timing belt, and t-stat. Any reason I should be replacing any of the other timing-belt parts (idler, tensioner, etc...)? Those prices add up fast so I'm trying to keep costs low.

Thanks for the links--I don't think your engine parts reference list is valid for me because I have a DOHC and I think yours is a SOHC (phase 1 vs. phase 2)?

original thread here: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=75016 Quick summary, headgasket blew in May (Mother's day), and I'm finally getting around to doing something about it. I've decided to take the engine completely out to work on it as grossgary recommended. The extra work to pull the engine (4 block to transmision bolts, engine mount bolts) aren't difficult. So far, it's going smoothly and I'm taking my time labeling things really well and taking my own notes of steps. I'm loosely following the Haynes manual, but even IT says it's more of a guideline or to-do list, rather than an actual procedure. About the worst thing so far is just waiting for coolant to drain. I got impatient waiting for the radiator drain to take care of it, so I just disconnected the lower radiator hose and it went much faster! I was surprised how easy it was to pull the radiator. I'm used to it being much more of a pain on other vehicles and was hoping I didn't have to do it (but I did). While the engine is out/apart, I'm going to do the following: -new belts, including t-belt -OEM headgaskets (obviously) -heads checked for warpage -plugs/wires are only a few thousand miles old and OEM, so I'm not changing them -any misc. seals such as valve covers, cam seals, perhaps the rear main seal if leaking, and the oil seperator plate (if plastic). -upper/lower radiator hoses The engine ran mint, so I don't think I'll have the shop do valve job unless they tell me they found something wrong. I haven't priced out a water pump or oil pump, but I'll probably at least do the water pump since I'm in this far. I don't plan on owning the car for ever, so I'm not going to spend a great deal of money on it other than replace what needs to be fixed. Are there any recommended online wholesale OEM parts suppliers?

Believe me, I know. I live on a lake. I'd probably boil a couple minnows if I put well water in there....

already have it. I live in the country and have a well and septic. No tap water here!

I would have to agree. I've unhooked MANY a fuel line on various cars without doing an official de-pressurization, and it's never sprayed like a garden hose. I don't think I've even seen as much of a dribble short of a bit coming out due to gravity. Part of my experience may be because I crack open the gas cap first to depressurize the fuel tank. The warning/disclaimer is likely there because it's a flammable material and not good for the eyes or skin should it actually spray.

Ahhhh, I bet these are the same plugs I had to unhook when removing the transmission? If not, I'm assuming they are very close by. If pulling the whole engine, the rest of the stuff sounds pretty easy, and I've already done the block-to-tranny bolts, starter, and intake assembly when I removed the transmission in my other '98 OBW. About the only thing I'm not sure of is where the fuel line disconnects. If leaving the engine in, I take it I can start unbolting the intake manifold almost immediately? Again, I'm so used to having to unbolt or remove a hundred other things first. It sure sounds like they made this car a lot easier to remove stuff.... Believe me, I know all about rust. I make use of the lifetime warranties on tools. Fasteners can be so difficult to remove that sockets/wrenches/extensions and just about anything else can break (especially when a 4' cheater bar is required). Luckily, this car is clean!

I do like the idea of pulling the engine though too. It's soooo much easier to work on stuff if the motor is out. I can't imagine I'd get it out in 2 hours though. Does the radiator or hood have to be yanked? (I'm assuming at least the hood does). If I pull the engine, where does the electrical harness disconnect? When I did the transmission swap a few months ago (noisy front pump whine, I had a few threads going here about it), I don't recall seeing any obvious spot to disconnect wiring. I'm used to larger vehicles with full frames, and they typically don't have an easy electrical disconnect to the engine harness. But if memory serves correct, you mentioned that small unibody cars like this are made for easier engine removal. In all of the engines I've worked on, wires have to be removed one by one and other things often have to be removed just to get to the wires.

Thanks, this is good info! I do have an engine hoist, so that is not a problem. I do not have an engine stand, but they are quite cheap and not an issue if I need to get one. I can make a stand out of wood blocks or old tires if I need to, but I obvouisly wouldn't be able to flip it around. If the valve cover bolts are the only difficult spot to get to, then I will investigate those before I decide. I thought I read in previous threads that it's easy to damage the head gaskets and difficult to slide the heads in because of the lack of space. Not having done this work before, I don't know what to make of that. Surely it can't be any harder than trying to lay a couple V8 cylinder heads in place in a full size vehicle when it's awkward to bend over and hold your arms out so far just to reach the engine. If a couple of head gaskets, timing belt, maybe a water pump and some other small misc. things are all I need, that sure sounds like the way to go. If I pull the heads myself, i will definitely bring them into a machine shop though. I normally tell the shop to clean the heads up, check for cracks and warpage, and resurface if needed. If other machine shop work is needed, then so be it (but I don't think this engine will need a valve job or anything like that). I did a transmission swap on this same type of car a few months ago, and it was much easier than I expected (note to self, still need to get a transmission jack).

Thanks for all the responses. I'm trying my best to read through previous HG threads, but it takes FOREVER on dialup Internet (and spare time is not available right now, but neither is money). I've bought and fixed several vehicles that already had blown head gaskets, but this is the first one that actually blew while I was driving it. All the previous blown head gaskets I've dealt with (toyota's mainly), resulted in coolant leaking into the cylinders and blowing out the exhaust in big billowy clouds, and possibly leaking enough to hydrolock or at least bend a connecting rod. Up until this Subaru, I haven't experienced temp gauge flucutations or loss of heater output. I've read up enough on these other symptoms in other head gasket adventures, so I was rather prepared for it even though this was my first time experiencing one as it blew. The loss of heat coming out the vents tipped me off immediately (we were cold from standing outside and were trying to warm up). While I'm certainly not going to junk the car and don't feel it's junk, my comment about the car not being worth it should perhaps be clarified. Locally, I see '95 and '96 OBW's selling for $2000-$4500. Cars of my vintage are selling for around $4500-7500 with low to comparable mileage. I really don't want to put $3k into this car's engine, when it may only be worth $3k for the whole car in a few years anyway. I'd rather put the money into a replacement car. The engine runs/ran great, and I never let the temp gauge max out so luck should be in my favor. In 3 years, the car will have another roughly 12,000 miles times 3 years or another 36,000 miles on it, or around 172,000 miles. I don't plan on having this car forever. I want to upgrade to the early 2000's body style (in my price range). If time-wise it makes the most sense to leave the engine in the car and just pull the heads, I will do that. But if it is quicker to pull the motor, then I will pull it and either pull the heads myself or I will bring the whole motor to a machine shop and have them do it (save some time). I've read conflicting opinions on whether it's easier/quicker to pull the motor first then pull the heads, or leave the motor in and pull the heads--so it is not clear to me yet which direction I will be heading. Some say pulling the engine is the only way to go, some say it takes a lot longer to pull the motor, some say there isn't much clearance to pull the heads with the motor in the car. I won't be forgetting an oil change. It's due anyway, and regardless, I always put new oil in when cylinder heads are pulled. Then, I change oil and filter again after about 20 minutes of running after installing new headgaskets. Despite the machine shops doing their best to clean the heads, there's always a chance something got in there.

Access for the plugs on my '98 OBW was definately easier from below. I didn't have to remove anything or even put it up on ramps. Just put a piece of cardboard on the ground and crawl under. From what I remember, I used the spark plug socket (minus the rubber thing), a 3/8" six inch extension (the short one), and the rachet. I also had to slide things in one by one and assemble/disassemble one by one. I put the spark plug in the socket, then put them in the hole (don't tip the socket or the plug will fall out), then put the extension on, then put the rachet on the extension. Make sure you can put these things together one-handed and take them apart again. My 15 year old craftsman rachet didn't want to release from the extension and I had a bugger of a time getting it off.

While I agree it would be great to have a new motor, I also feel the car isn't worth it, particularly after another few years (new motor or not). If this was a newer car or had a lot less miles, I'd reconsider. My plan is to either pull the motor and have it rebuilt at a local machine shop, or, I pull the heads and do the work myself. I'm not apposed to pulling heads, since I've done it on several other types of vehicles, but now was not the greatest time for this to happen. My main concern is, is it easier to pull the heads with the engine in the car or out of the car? If I have to pull the engine, I may just drop it off at the machine shop and let them do it (time constraints on my part right now). If it's quicker to pull the heads, I'll just do the work myself. I pulled a transmission out of my other '98 OBW a few months ago, so I'm fairly familiar with what to expect (including seating the torque converter properly). If I do it myself, I'd basically be looking for a valve regrind "kit" which includes the head gaskets and all other gaskets needed to do a valve job. I will definately stick with Subi OEM parts.

does the noise occur while revving the engine while not moving? Piston slap likes to make it's noise during the fast RPM changes, although I'm sure other noises like to do this too. If it's something like a wheel bearing, it can definately become louder/quieter depending on which way you are turning vs. going straight. Wheel bearings do usally growl and howl though. I can't say I've heard one that taps. If you are in an area where you can weave a little bit back and forth while driving, just enough to make the car rock a little as the weight shifts, you might be able to decipher if it's a wheel bearing or not. Or, just find a curvy road. Generally, the wheel bearing will be on the opposite side of the car you are turning in the direction of when you weave. As the car body rolls ever so slightly, it places more weight on one side of the car (and those two wheels). Bad bearing noises will typically get louder with more weight on them. If you turn to the right, and the noise gets louder, the bad bearing should be on the left side, and vice versa.

1998 Subaru OBW with (infamous) 2.5L and auto: My wife and I are driving home from a nice mothers day dinner last night, the heat coming out the vents stops and turns cold, goes back warm, then back cold again. I look at the temp gauge and it's starting to climb. I coast and pull over about 2 blocks from the start of it and shut her off. I pulled the overflow cap and coolant is rising and there's a film of black sludge on top, and bubbles are blowing out (even with engine off). I make the call to have someone help me tow it home (don't want risk damage), and the coolant level in the reservoir drops back to normal but there's still some black goo clinging to the reservoir walls. So.... surely this is headgasket that has failed. It never started running poorly, and I did not drive it more than about 2 blocks. I am going to try and do a leakdown test if I can get the tool into the spark plug hole. So....I will just assume this is a failed headgasket. 1) pull entire engine and have shop rebuild engine 2) pull heads with block still in car? 3) I'm assuming these are classic symptoms of a headgasket failure on the 2.5L. Is there a common failure point I should look for if I end up doing the gaskets myself? The car has 136k and runs/ran great (and this really caught me by surprise). The timing belt was due anyway. I'm not sure about the water pump or oil pump. What can I expect for costs for this assuming I either pull the heads and have a machine shop clean them up and check for cracks, vs. getting a basic rebuild? The engine really didn't use any oil and didn't have any piston slap.

I would also suggest carrying gas on the roof rack. I don't think gas cans even come non-vented? Since gasoline expands, you wouldn't want the can heating up and exploding inside the car. Another thought is... assuming you have a trailer hitch, you could find a receiver that slides in that would act as a gas can holder, or, if clearance allows, they make those small storage platforms that slide into the hitch. These storage platforms are typically under $100 and available most anywhere, even Walmart. However, I don't know if the outback is tall enough. There are many accessory-type devices that can slide into the receiver hitch such as bike racks, canoe racks, and bumper steps, and they are pretty reasonably priced. I would think you'd be able to find something to work, or at least be able to find something that can be modified easily enough to work.

If it were me, I wouldn't plan on valve jobs, cracked heads, resurfacing, until you have the heads checked out. If you tell the machine shop to rebuild them completely, they will. However, you most certainly can tell them you just want to do what's necessary. In that case, they will clean the heads, check for cracks (and stop doing any more work if they are cracked), check the deck surface for warpage, resurface only if needed, check the valve train, and if everything looks ok, you'll probably get out of there with just a cleaning and resurfacing. No point in completely rebuilding or buying new heads if the old ones are good. Make sure the machine shop has worked on Subaru's before, as previously mentioned. Although, I have brought heads in before to shops that had not seen certain heads before, and they still did fine jobs (they have books to look up specs). Chances are, if the headgaskets were leaking, you'll likelyi be able to see the failure point in the gasket (eroded away or split) and some staining on the head/block. Try to be gentle pulling the headgaskets off, and you can take them to the machine shop and have them take a look if you can't find a failure point. It may help you to do a leakdown test (or at a bare minimum a compression test) to see which cylinder(s) has the leak. Then you can pinpoint where you should be looking for a failure. If your headgasket is in fact failing, there's no timeline you have to be assured you can keep driving it. The best advice is to stop driving it ASAP to prevent any additional damage. If your car has not overheated yet, then you should have minimal repair work to do. If it overheats, then the probability of the nasty stuff (cracked head, block, etc...) escalates, along with repair costs. I have done most all my headgasket jobs myself (all of them on non-subaru vehicles), and all of them have been around $500-$600 for new gasket sets (typically referred to as a valve grind set or head gasket set), machine shop work, and misc. supplies such as coolant, oil, RTV, etc.... All my previous experience has been on more complicated V6 and V8 engines, so I can only imagine the cost to do a headgasket job yourself is going to be in this ball park. It would of course depend on how far you go, such as timing belt, misc. belts, water pump, plugs, wires, coolant hoses, etc... You can get nickle-and-dime'd pretty quick on these things. But, you'll get dime-and-quarter'd if you are paying someone to do it for you.

I live about 2 1/2 hours north of the Twin Cities. We had anywhere from 0" to 7" of snow a couple months ago depending on how close you were to Lake Superior. The nearly brown Christmas here was definately odd. However, within the last couple of weeks we've been socked with 35+" of snow in two snowstorms (one was a full-blown blizzard). Many of the junkyarddog responders appear to be automated responses from yards fishing for anything. You'll probably even see the same "form letter" E-mail sent to you from different yards. They basically say, "hi, we have your part, didn't pay attention to what you are looking for, and you should call us for a price and buy from us because we're great for the following 10 reasons." I responded to the same place 3 times telling them they kept sending me the same form letter, and they just kept responding with the same form! Funny part is, they kept saying they had my engine in stock (too bad I was looking for a transmission). There were plenty of legit responses though too.

x2 about what gary said concerning seating the torque converter. Luckily, I was overly paranoid about it and didn't find it too difficult to get seated. You (or the mechanic) can look at the end of the torque converter shaft and shine a flashlight in the hole in the front of the transmission and see the two "teeth" that are supposed to slide into the two slots on the end of the torque converter shaft. This is the last 1/4" that he is talking about.

I carry one of those cheap (like under $50) collapsing tool kits like from Kmart, Walmart, etc... that has a wide assortment of wrenches, sockets, screw drivers, allen wrenches, etc.... I also carry a portable battery jump pack, air compressor (plugs into lighter outlet in car), a tow strap or two, flash light, and a tire patch kit. It sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. My wife carries most of the same stuff, plus a small collapsible shovel (snow). It's just stuff I've accumulated over the last 16+ years of owning vehicles. Interestingly, I use these tools more often on OTHER PEOPLE'S cars instead of my own. What gets used most often are the battery jump pack and air compressor. I personally don't like the combo jump back/air compressors because the battery is smaller/weaker in order to make room for the compressor, and when one of the two devices fails, they both typically fail. I got a real nice "Peak" brand jump pack from Menards for $50 on sale and it has been wonderful. Much better than using jumper cables.

Hard to pass up $50. I personally found very few transmissions with under 75k. Typical mileage was around 100k. I paid $550 to my door for mine and felt I got a good deal. I found perhaps one transmission with 34k and one with a reported 3k, but they were VERY expensive and I passed on those. I would have bought one from Rich's with 75k for around $300 plus s/h, but the shipping made it a wash. For me, I just wanted something that was similar to the mileage my car already had, or less. I only have a few hundred miles on my car with the new transmission, but I am quite satisfied. The salvage yard pulled, packaged, and shipped my transmission from their donor within 24 hours, and I had it in within 2 days of the order. I couldn't have been happier. If you buy something used, make sure the mileage of the transmission as taken and reported by the yard is documented on the receipt so that you can save it for your records (in case you ever sell), and make sure you get some sort of a parts warranty "just in case." As I mentioned before, 30-90 days parts-only warranties (for free) seemed to be the norm with salvage yards. I can't speak for others, but I have been watching this board for almost a year know. I can only recall reading a few stories of people receiving "bad" used transmissions from salvage yards. I read those posts while I was searching threads for torque bind problems. Before I bought our 1st '98 OBW almost a year ago (NOT the '98 OBW I just replaced the transmission in), I test drove several OBW's and at least half of them had torque bind. I wanted to find out what the cause(s) were, and I remember reading that people bought new (used) transmissions only to have the problem still occur, or encounter a new problem. Needless to say, it wasn't anything that scared me away from buying something used. I've been working on cars since 1991 and have had to deal with many different yards. In the early days, there was no Internet as we know it today. I was stuck with going to the 3 local yards, and that was it (and I often had to bend over for them!). Now with the Internet, this board, car-part.com, junkyarddog.com, etc.... I hardly ever go to the local yards because they aren't the best price. For just under $600 I fixed my car's problem, put a transmission in with less than half the miles on the car, and did not empty my wallet out to a local transmission rebuild shop. To me, it wasn't worth putting in up to almost $4000 for a new freshly built transmission that could last another 300k+ miles, because likely the rest of the car won't (accident, selling, other major repairs, etc...). I have also had bad experiences with these transmission shops. Actually, one local shop, and it was relatives that had the experience. The transmission was "going" on my dad's toyota pickup, and a local shop rebuilt the whole thing. 1000 miles in to a 2000 mile trip to alaska, the "new" transmission starts spewing fluid out the front output shaft seal. Coincidentailly, it failed in Oregon. Anyway, we had to spend a few extra days in Oregon while the transmission was pulled (it only had 2000 miles on it) and found out the shop that rebuilt it put the wrong seal in it. Since we were 1000 miles from home and the original shop that did the work, the original shop couldn't do the repair and wouldn't reimburse us for the work done in Oregon. Then a few years later, my sister brought her Toyota 4Runner in to this same local shop (I warned her not to because of the previous story). She did anyway, and they of course recommended a complete rebuild. The same thing happened! The only difference was, my dad's truck had a 5 speed manual and my sister's had an automatic and was about 5 years newer. So then my step-dad brings his dodge to the SAME local shop and he of course needs a complete rebuild too. I also tried to warn him but no luck again. We're waiting to see how that story ends.... I guess the moral of the story is that paying big bucks on a "new" transmission does not always guarantee reliability.

Keep in mind you can always make an offer on a transmission. I got $50 off mine after I got their total price with shipping. You could always pick up the transmission yourself if it's not a long drive. In my case, it was 300 miles one way, and for $75, I couldn't pass up the shipping. A 30 to 90 day parts-only warranty was pretty much standard on all the yards I called when I searched for a transmission last month. If your transmission is basically the same as mine, you will want to consider replacing the front output shaft seal, rear output shaft seal, and goofy torque converter shaft graphite seal. These 3 seals cost me $30 from the dealer and are not available aftermarket as far as I know. I also purchased a rear main seal but decided not to replace it. There was a small oil leak on the oil seperator plate, and I just resealed that. After refilling with about 9 quarts of ATF at about $7 per gallon, I had it all done myself for about $550+$30+14=$594 for a replacement used transmission with 53k on it.

If you've followed any of my threads in the last month or so, you may know that I recently bought a '98 OBW and had to replace the auto transmission in it right away. The transmission wasn't junk, but what I thought was an alternator whine or idler pulley whine was actually a front pump whine (thanks for the help Nipper!). I have since replaced the transmission myself and am now left with the old one. I bought the replacement off http://www.car-part.com from a salvage yard 300 miles away that shipped it via truck. They didn't ask for the core as a return (wouldn't have made any sense to ship it back). Are any of the old parts worth hanging on to or worth selling? For example, front diff, torque converter, output shaft assembly, etc...? the old transmission did not have torque bind and actually shifted just fine. The only reason I knew it had a problem was the whine. I replaced it right away because I did not want the problem getting more serious.

I just went through this process on my '98 OBW. I did not hesitate to get a used transmission. Salvage yards can get a bad rap, but they are like any other business and do not want to get a bad reputation. I bought my transmission, shipped to my door in 2 days, for $575 with only 53k from a car that had a light hit in the rear. My car is much happier now! I installed it myself, but I was very paranoid about the installed (and needlessly so). I have been wrenching for years and didn't have any trouble with it. If you are not capable of doing it, I was able to find local shops willing to do the install for me if I provided them with a transmission. Typical rates were $75/hour for 4.5 hours of book time, or $337.50 for labor rate. Fluids and any gaskets would be a little bit more. I found my transmission using http://www.car-part.com (an online database salvage yards can use to list their inventory). Some of these places even showed pictures of the car you'd be buying parts from (one place that comes to mind is named Rich's, in Kansas or somewhere in the midwest). There were numerous transmissions out there under $500. My recommendation is to find someone that is closer, because the shipping (via truck) will be less. I could have purchased several $300 transmissions, but they were too far away and would have cost me just as much in the end because of shipping. I had no luck calling local yards. They either didn't have anything, or wanted stupid amounts of money. Most of them wanted the old transmission back too or would charge a several hundred dollar core charge. Car-part.com prices/availability spanks the local guys. My OBW had the same problem, a bad front pump. However, my car shifted flawlessly. The only indication of a problem was a noise/whine. If you do a search on "front pump" you should find my threads from a month ago or so. The old ATF also had a slight amount of metal bits in it, but not very much. Shops that specialize in rebuilding transmissions have their own reputation for being blood suckers. They will try to convince you that you need a ridiculous amount of work done. I tried that route initially too, but they were giving me quotes from $1800 to $3500!!!!! no thanks! Do not call a transmission shop to see if they will install a used transmission you bought on your own. They will want nothing to do with that. The replacement is pretty straight forward, and I wouldn't be too concerned about finding a shop that only specializes in subarus. A general repair shop ought to be able to do it. For what it's worth, people on this board do NOT like AMMCO.

One subwoofer would be more than enough for your desires. I think a single 8" would be plenty. You aren't looking to blow your windows out and/or go deaf, are you?? As for the storage cubby, yes you could convert that into a sub enclosure. But, you will have to see how much air space the sub(s) you are looking at will require. If that storage cubby isn't enough, you'll need to make a larger cubby. I have never removed those back panels before, but it's reasonable to think you'd have to make the cubby bigger. If you don't want to lose storage space, you might have enough room back there to put the speaker elsewhere on the sidewall via removing the plastic panel and building an enclosure inside the steel structure of the car. There may or may not be enough room to fit wood in there without having to cut some metal away. This may sound rather complicated, but it's quite common in SUV's and what-not that have a rear cargo area. Yes, the sub will need it's own amplifier. If your deck does not have a band filter/cut off, you will need to get an amp with one built in, or install a seperate filter (less messing around if you just get a deck/amp with it built in). Many manufacturers make subwoofer-specific amps that have that built in. I just bought a nice alpine a few months ago to drive a 15 year old 10" Kicker sub that I built a custom enclosure for many years ago. I used to run two of these 10" Kicker (old style) subs 15 years ago back in high school when it really "important." Now that I am not trying to blow the windows out, one 10" sub is more than enough. I converted the empty half of the enclosure into tool storage (extra cab pickup).

No, I didn't actually use one. I thought about getting one. I could also build something myself though too, but for $45 it's not worth my time. Even if the Northern Tool product doesn't work as-is, I can then re-work it to make it work. I have a welder and what-not and can fabricate something if need be. What I actually used, is what I normally do on toyota manual transmissions. I laid a 1"x10" board across the 6 inch base "cup" of my regular floor jack (not one of those wimpy $30 from walmart), put the transmission on it, then use racheting tie downs around it and the jack cup and jack lift arm so that it can't fall off. It gives me enough wiggle room to pull the front or back of the transmission up/down an inch or so, but not enough to fall off. I wouldn't recommend this method though unless you can assure stability. The Subaru transmission did not work this way as nicely because the tranny pan is not nice and flat and is darn close to not having a good center balance point. The balance point is at the front of the pan in the middle. It was doable, but I had to work extra slow and have a second set of hands stabilizing the transmission as I moved the jack around under the car.