gijoe985 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) Hey all, So I've got a buddy with a 90 Legacy 2.2 and from the looks of it he lost an upper radiator hose and then overheated the engine. The car was burning a lot of coolant when he got it to me. Lots of white smoke. We took off the heads, had them machined, and yet it was still burning coolant when we got her back together. The compression went from about 60 per cylinder back to about 120 after we did the heads. But we still have the white smoke and now we even have a little bit of a tapping noise. A little too light for me to call a knock. Any suggestions? Could we have an internal head crack? Is there any way that the coolant could be coming through the intake? I'm helping another buddy right now who has a 3.8 Olds that was sucking coolant through a cracked intake. Though I don't know of any coolant passages in the 2.2l subaru intake... There is always the possibility we didn't tighten things correctly or whatnot, while installing the head gaskets. But I find that kinda doubtful... Either way, after all that work, he said he'd just give me the car, so now I am hoping to find out what it is (not that I wasn't determined before.) Second question- From what I understand these cars should have distilled water and a 100% phosphate and silicate free coolant. What is the additive that Subaru has? Anti-corrosive? Would a Peak additive work? There is no dealership in my town, so I was hoping that with the correct water and coolant we could get away without the additive or with a substitute. Just curious... Edited September 27, 2009 by gijoe985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 The Subaru additive is only for Phase II EJ25's (All 2000+ EJ25's and 99 Forester EJ25's). As for the coolant - how long have you driven the car/run the engine? It's typically for coolant lying in the exhaust to burn off for awhile after a headgasket job. Did you use a Subaru gasket? In general most folks avoid any aftermarket gaskets for EJ engines. Test for exhaust gasses in the coolant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Ok, my wife drives a 2.5l 2001 Outback, so that's still good info for me. As far as the other car, I may try running it longer, but it also had that new tapping noise that wasn't there before. Very frustrating. But I ran it probably 5 minutes. It started to die off, but when I stopped it and then started it again there was still a big cloud upon startup and then it slowly died down again. Should I check the radiator for bubbles? I'll keep hunting for clues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Suby's tap when put back together. MMO is great for this - don't ask me why. It was suggested here and I had never used it before. I let it warm up a few times to heat cycle it, pull coolant in. I wait until the fan kicks on then shut it off and let it cool for a long time (preferably over night). Check coolant, refill overflow to proper line. Restart it, let it warm up, take it for a drive. After a few minutes make it a "spirited" drive. With the MMO in there and a few miles of actual driving they usually quiet down. Atleast thats been my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 22, 2009 Author Share Posted September 22, 2009 Alrighty,that makes me feel better about the tick, but I still need to hammer down on this coolant leak. I may just need to take the heads off again and have them pressure tested. Maybe a block crack? No, because the oil is clean. As for the coolant, maybe we can try it out one more time and let it run longer, otherwise I'll just try again. Inspect heads... My problem there is that I had them machined, and my old local shop used to always include a pressure check with the service, but they aren't doing heads anymore. So I think I just expected them to be checked at the new place. Didn't think twice about it until I had the white smoke still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Do a leak down test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 5 mins is not long enough to burn all the crap out of the exhaust. It usually takes me about a half hour of driving. An engine for a 90 legacy is dirt cheap. You can get them for $100-300. If yours is questionable just get another, not worth spending time and money on it. One last thing is I have no problem using aftermarket gaskets on a Phase 1 EJ22. I do it often. Every other EJ engine I work on only gets OEM gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the info, big help! I'll try to dig in deeper in the next day or two. Right now I have MMO and a longer run on my to do list. After that, maybe a leakdown test if I'm still see troubles. Edited September 23, 2009 by gijoe985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Hey all, so I ran it for a while, the white smoke seemed to die down once it heated up, but it didn't go away totally. I am going to try to let is cool down again and then see if it is just as bad. The ticking is still there though. I put in some MMO, but I'll need to remove oil if I do any more. I'm hoping it is just a "tick" and not a "knock." It wasn't there when the heads were pulled. They got machined, but I doubt that'd create a knock. Maybe the timing was off? Will need to look into that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 23, 2009 Author Share Posted September 23, 2009 Alright, white smoke gone, ticking persists. Can we change the valve lash on these? Maybe the shop removed the cams when it was machined and they didn't put them back on tight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valvestem Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Keep us posted on the ticking, my wife's Outback had a HG replaced this past summer, and now it "taps" on startup, worse on a cooler day. When it warms up, it lessens but does not go away completely. I am glad I saw this thread, I never thought of MMO, even though I used it successfully years ago on a 76AMC Pacer with a sticky "tapping" lifter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Alright, white smoke gone, ticking persists. Can we change the valve lash on these? Maybe the shop removed the cams when it was machined and they didn't put them back on tight... How far and spirited did you drive it? I've had it take 100 miles or so. I'd do that first. I take a 50 mile trip to a mall. Shop, let it cool down, drive back home. This also puts 2 cycles on it to see potential codes like O2 sensor, cat, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Keep us posted on the ticking, my wife's Outback had a HG replaced this past summer, and now it "taps" on startup, worse on a cooler day. When it warms up, it lessens but does not go away completely. I am glad I saw this thread, I never thought of MMO, even though I used it successfully years ago on a 76AMC Pacer with a sticky "tapping" lifter. This could be lots of things. Including rod knock. Who did the work - by that I mean did they check the oil pump screws and such? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 I can't recall if that year was solid lifters or hydraulic. If it's solid you can adjust them. If it's hydraulic it takes a bit of driving for them to pump back up. If it doesn't go away one or more may be collapsed or you may have clogged an oil passage with silicone if you used it in the repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 Good thoughts, I think I can get the valve covers off without taking anything else off. I plan to do some inspecting. I could always take out a lifter and prime it, see if that helps. I'm pretty sure I read that they're hydraulic. They are probably empty since the heads were cleaned at the machine shop. Now that's making sense. The heads were cleaned when they were machined. I assume in a solvent tank. So those lifters would be pretty empty. On my 3000gt I primed the lifters in MMO before I installed them. Quicker than oil, the Mits. shop manual suggests kerosene. I assume I can get the lifters out without taking off much, driver's side will be tight, but doable... I'll try that tomorrow. So far no more white smoke though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 I had one collapsed lifter. And a whole row that needed some priming. The other head doesn't seem to be ticking, so I am going to let it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valvestem Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 This could be lots of things. Including rod knock. Who did the work - by that I mean did they check the oil pump screws and such? The work was done as a "Goodwill Gesture" paid for by SOA because the car had so few miles on it despite it's age. It was done by Pape Subaru, a well established/good rep Subaru dealer. Believe it or not, we did take it back, and guess what, it did not make the noise for the techs. I was incredulous when they told me that, and lo and behold when I when out and started the car up, it was quiet. But the next day late afternoon when the wife left for work, the tapping was back. Only they know if the oil pump screws and such were checked, I would hope so. Maybe it's possible they added something to the oil to get the tapping to go away temporarily, and thus got us "out the door". The car was at the shop for all day on a Thursday and picked up late Friday afternoon to demonstrate they at least had adequate time to effect a proper repair. Also for the record, no tapping was present before the repair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 This could be lots of things. Including rod knock. Who did the work - by that I mean did they check the oil pump screws and such? Though it doesn't affect my current situation, am curious what you mean by checking the oik pump screws? Is there a common problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Though it doesn't affect my current situation, am curious what you mean by checking the oik pump screws? Is there a common problem? I wouldn't call it a "common problem" but loosening of the backing plate screws happens often enough to warrant checking when you're into the front end. Use the "search" function here on the board. Searching "oil pump" turns up hundreds of older threads discussing the situation, for instance here's one: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=37465&highlight=pump+screws Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) Lifter update/question- I got the tick to go away, but it came back after about five minutes of 50mph driving. Here's how it went down. 1-I took off the rocker arms (this is the first time) the intake lifters compressed a bit, 3/4 exhaust didn't compress, one was collapsed. 2-I primed the intakes, ordered new lifter, replaced new lifter the next day (today). 3-Installed everything, but there was still a tick, seemed to becoming from the top back passenger lifter (rear #3 intake). Pull the rocker arms off again, all of the intake ones can be compressed again (though after bleeding they were firm). The furthest back moved the most. 4-Primed intake lifters again, reinstalled. 5-Can runs smooth, took for country drive, tick came back after 5 minutes. Here is my question- do I prime them again? Did I do something wrong? Do all of them need to be replaced or just the furthest back one, which is where I believe the "loud" tick is coming from? At $15 a pop I'd rather not replace ones that are not needed. The car is going up for sale as soon as it is presentable. Thanks everyone! P.s. Could a moderator edit my original thread title to say something along the lines of "burning coolant and lifter tick problems after HG replacement? That way people searching in the future will be directed here. Edited September 25, 2009 by gijoe985 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 P.s. Could a moderator edit my original thread title to say something along the lines of "burning coolant and lifter tick problems after HG replacement? That way people searching in the future will be directed here. depending on how long it has been posted, you can edit yourself. open your original post, look down in the lower right corner and click on EDIT. then go to advanced edit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 27, 2009 Author Share Posted September 27, 2009 Alright, thanks. I never noticed the advanced edit. As for my ticking problems. I think I mentioned that Mitsubishi has you prime their lifters in kerosene, or MMO, so they fill easier. That's what I did. Maybe I should have just done oil. It seems funny that the lifters are pumping up, and holding it, I can't compress them once I prime them, but then after driving they get sloppy again. And the funny thing is that it is the whole intake row. Only one ticks really loud, but the whole row got squishy. But the exhausts are still very firm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gijoe985 Posted September 29, 2009 Author Share Posted September 29, 2009 Bought 4 new lifters today. We'll see what happens once they're in... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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