Fairtax4me Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I had a strange occurrence today driving home from work. Every 30 seconds or so I would get a pop out of the speakers in the car. Then I noticed the CEL (which is on for an unrelated reason) flickered in unison with the pop. I had to stop for a red light and the radio cut off, like the power had been cut. This happened when I was staring out in first gear coming off the line. The radio came back on, acted like the key had been turned off and then back on, then went to popping again as I was driving. Next stop, same deal, radio cuts off, but I noticed that all of the gauges (tach, oil pressure, water temp, fuel) all dipped to near nothing at the same time as the radio cut off. So when I got home I popped the hood half expecting to see the ground wire on the battery loose or something. I just replaced the terminals about two weeks ago with clamp style universals, both terminals were tight. I checked the connection on the engine, and the one on the body. All seem to be in satisfactory condition. I started the car and set the parking brake tight, then "lurched" the car a few times by kicking out the clutch in first gear and I got it to reproduce the problem twice. Tried to keep the engine running but it did stall once, when it cut off I heard what I think was the main relay (somewhere under the dash is all I could tell) clicking rapidly, and all of the lights in the instrument panel went dim. Not out, but only about half as bright as they should be. I hit the brake pedal, and they all blinked, then came back on full brightness when I let off the pedal. Hitting the pedal after that had little effect. Restarted the engine, and couldn't manage to duplicate the problem any more after that. My clutch isn't in the best shape so I called it quits and went inside. Came back out about an hour later and drove the car a few miles with no problem. I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for here. Seems like all the stuff inside the car loses voltage for a split second then comes back just fine. The engine never stumbled that I could tell. I couldn't manage to get any readings with my VOM while it was doing this. Any ideas or advice? Things to check? 96 Legacy sedan in case anyone wants to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durania Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Have your alternator checked at the auto parts store for starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 We've got a tester at work. I'll check that tomorrow. It's a reman unit (has a sticker on it) though I don't think it's the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durania Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Yeah give it a test. I've seen some crazy things caused by a bad alternator before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Ru Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 I checked with Captain Obvious, says loose connection. My 0.02 is on any recent electrical work done to the car...which I know you checked already...check again. Any corrosion eating its way under insulation? Anything you touched during recent work is worth a second look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 I checked with Captain Obvious, says loose connection. That's what I thought too, and that was why the first thing I checked was the terminals. All I did was replace the terminals and re-attach the cables to the bracket that holds them to the strut tower. I had a look at the cables when I put the terminals on, and they weren't perfect but they were in pretty good shape under the insulation. I wiggled the cables all around and couldn't make it act up while I was under the hood. I think I'll cut back the insulation on the other side and see what if anything is going on at the engine end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 It might narrow it down if you can figure whether it's the car lurching that makes it play up or whether it's the engine rocking on it's mounts. If it takes the whole car moving to cause it, then more likely to be the body wiring. If just letting the clutch up abruptly without actually moving the car... the engine wiring. Starter main cable might be a good start. You could also leave the car idling and get around it wriggling wires till it dies or the lights flicker. You might need someone in the car watching the dash while you do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) I agree with the loose connection thought. One of my favorite tricks is to use a screwdriver handle to tap on suspected areas. That usually shows up the trouble. It may be with the ignition switch or a connection under the dash. Check the main fuse panel are under the hood first and then move to the dash are if you don't find the trouble there. Edited October 7, 2009 by Cougar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Year and mileage please, we ALWAYS need this information. Test the altenator on the car only. Testing it off the car is useless. Only test it with an analog tester. The digital ones give TMI, and no one really knows how to read them properly. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 6, 2009 Author Share Posted October 6, 2009 Year is still the same as listed in the first post. :-p 168k Alternator test. Running voltage is 14.3v, Max output @ ~2000 rpm is 103 amps, according to the tester. I did remove the main fuse/relay panel earlier today, and checked to make sure the power lead from the battery was tight. Even took the whole thing apart and made sure the distribution board inside it was OK. No problems there that I could see. Had no trouble out of it today until just a few minutes ago on the way home from dinner. It stalled as I pulled into the driveway, all the lights went dim. Turning the key caused all of the lights to go out. No clicks from the starter solenoid, nothing. Opened the door and the dome light was dim, hit the brake pedal and it went out completely, along with everything else. Got out of the car and popped the hood, as I was walking to the front of the car the door shut (was parked on an incline) and the headlights came back on. Opened the hood and started wiggling wires, smacked all of the relays in the main panel, no dice, couldn't get the lights to go back out. Started the car no problem, drove around the block no problems. Now it won't do it again til tomorrow probably. I'm pretty sure that this is in the body wiring. I was coasting in neutral when it cut off. There's a gravel parking lot at a school about a quarter mile from the house. I'm gonna take it up there and ride around and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Thats actually alot of useful information. Check the main fuse block. Physically remove it and inspect for corrosion or a tired fuseable link. There are not many places on the car where you can loose the primary power feed and have a backfeed to the entire car. nipper PS check the main relay harness too. Edited October 6, 2009 by nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log1call Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Whow, that is a bad case! Perhaps a main battery lead? I have seen them with bad connections where the wire goes into the terminal before. They would start and everything.... when they wanted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 7, 2009 Author Share Posted October 7, 2009 I had just replaced the terminals because they were all corroded, because I wanted to avoid electrical/starting problems later down the road. Look how far it got me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 There should be a smaller lead tied to the battery that goes to the main power panel under the hood. Check that lead for a bad connection. It may be corrodid internally. If you use the tapping screwdriver method I mentioned earlier you will find the trouble. It may also be a good idea to clean the battery ground connections to the chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikevan10 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Those "clamp-on" battery terminals are not that great in the first place. And since that is something you changed recently, I would hghly suspect that area. Mike V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 8, 2009 Author Share Posted October 8, 2009 Nothing happened today. Drove out to the gun club after work to take out some aggression on a paper person, and never had any trouble out of it. Not like its a long distance there, but it's further than the 3 mile drive to work. I do have one more idea, that maybe this could be cut or damaged wiring in the main power harness that runs inside the drivers fender. This car was wrecked in the front back in 2002 IIRC. There is some slight damage to the frame on the drivers side. I know the hood has been replaced, and the front bumper, I'm wondering if the fender got replaced as well. I'm going to pull the wheel well liner and see if I can see the harness, if not the fender is coming off. Those "clamp-on" battery terminals are not that great in the first place. And since that is something you changed recently, I would hghly suspect that area. I used these. I've used them several times before with no trouble. If it's anything related to the battery it's the cables, which I may just replace anyway for gits and shiggles. http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/accessories/accProductDetails.jsp?categoryDisplayName=Starting+and+Charging&fromString=search&itemIdentifier=95964_0_0_&productId=95964&sortType=&parentId=5-10&filterByKeyWord=battery+terminal&categoryNValue=100005&navValue=100427&fromWhere=&itemId=427-10&displayName=Battery+Terminal+End+and+Adapter&store=970&skuDisplayName=2+pcs.+epoxy+top+post+battery+terminal&brandName=Lynx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) Well I got a week out of it with no trouble... now it's back... with a vengeance! Got a call from a friend that he needed a jump. Hopped in the car and turned the key, all the lights went out, nothing. Had to take the backup car (my Lincoln) and leave diagnosis of the soob for when I got back. Turned the key in the on position and I could hear a relay clicking and the key in ignition chime was making a gurgling kinda noise. Very carefully I opened the hood so as not to upset the interruption so I could take some readings with the VOM. 13.5v at the battery post. 4.2v at the fusible link in the main relay box. Reached up under the relay box and managed to get the probe on the bolt for the power wire from the battery, same voltage. Bolt that holds the cable on the starter, same voltage. Checked at the terminal it went up to 4.3v. Checked the post again 13.5V. Touched the terminal with my finger and found it was warm. Grabbed a wrench out of the tool box and smacked the positive terminal one time good... And the Lord said "let there be light"... and everything turned back on, lights, radio, chime, HVAC fan... Removed the terminal to find what looked like concrete all over the post, and some really deep pit marks in the cone of the terminal. The stuff was gray, and hard as a rock. Now I know this stuff wasn't there when I put these new terminals on because I cleaned the posts after I removed the old terminals. Only thing I can figure is that some kind of protectant was put on the terminal when it was made, and whenever I started the car it would cook because of the current trying to flow through it. And what it turned into didn't conduct electricity at all, so compounding the generation of heat from cranking the car and eventually leading to a bunch of arcing inside the terminal, pitting the post and the terminal and leaving, essentially, burned lead. Sound theory? Cleaned the posts (for the second time) and the new terminals and now its all peachy again... for now. Edited October 14, 2009 by Fairtax4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 [...] Now I know this stuff wasn't there when I put these new terminals on because I cleaned the posts after I removed the old terminals. [...] What did you use to clean the battery posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 A post cleaner... like this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000SL0LFU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 A post cleaner... like this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000SL0LFU Okay, good. The reason I asked is because I've seen people use abrasive paper/cloth (emery, etc.). The abrasive particles can imbed in the lead of the posts -- that's a problem because the abrasive material is typically aluminum oxide or something similar, which is at best a semi-conductor. Drawing heavy current through the contamination will cause voltage drop and result in heat, further reducing the quality of the connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Okay, good. The reason I asked is because I've seen people use abrasive paper/cloth (emery, etc.). The abrasive particles can imbed in the lead of the posts -- that's a problem because the abrasive material is typically aluminum oxide or something similar, which is at best a semi-conductor. Drawing heavy current through the contamination will cause voltage drop and result in heat, further reducing the quality of the connection. Very interesting, as usual OB99W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 I've seen people use abrasive paper/cloth (emery, etc.). Can't say I've ever done that but I have used a pocket knife, a flat head screwdriver, channel lock pliers, even a finger nail file (the flip out kind on the back of the clippers) to clean posts in a pinch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Can't say I've ever done that but I have used a pocket knife, a flat head screwdriver, channel lock pliers, even a finger nail file (the flip out kind on the back of the clippers) to clean posts in a pinch. Those would all likely get the job done, especially when a wire brush tool isn't handy. Pretty much anything that will expose uncorroded metal without leaving behind badly-conducting residue should work. Another practice that's counterproductive is application of grease to the posts and cable clamps before tightening them. Grease can minimize the corrosive effects of acid (although with a good battery and proper charging there's actually very little venting), but it should only be applied after the hardware is fully tightened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 15, 2009 Share Posted October 15, 2009 Another practice that's counterproductive is application of grease to the posts and cable clamps before tightening them. Grease can minimize the corrosive effects of acid (although with a good battery and proper charging there's actually very little venting), but it should only be applied after the hardware is fully tightened. I totally agree with you OB99W. I could not figure out why people think that putting an insulator between the contact surfaces will help the surfaces conduct better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 Those would all likely get the job done, They did, although the file idea took about 20 minutes to get decent results. Another practice that's counterproductive is application of grease to the posts and cable clamps before tightening them. Quite right. [ / British accent] :-p It's one thing to use grease on a light bulb connector, but on the battery post it does more harm than good because of the amount of current that needs to be able to move through that connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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