tgrandahl Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Hi All, I just bought my first Subaru! An auto 98 Forester S with 146k Mi that is in great shape, aside from the blown head gasket and valve ticking.... The PO informed me that he encountered the head gasket issue when driving back from work, it over heated and coolant was bubbling into the expansion tank. So i currently have the vehicle parked in my garage for a thanks giving break project. I read through this HG guide that gave me a good feel for the procedure. I was surprised that it did not mention new head bolts in the parts list on this page, is it common to re-use these or did he possibly just not mention it? I am also a little concerned about the ticking / knocking that the engine exhibits. The PO told me that once the engine gets up to temp the sound stops. Does this indicate that there is just some lash in the lifters that can be fixed with shims? The noise also gets a lot worse when the engine is put under load, I took two videos of this. You can hear it get dramatically louder toward the end of the first video when i put the car in reverse. The second video is a close up of the engine with the car in reverse and the e-brake on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 ticking is piston slap and is benign, just ignore it. no easy fix. Subaru does not use TTY head bolts - so reuse them all day long, buying new bolts is completely unnecessary. folks that say otherwise are ignorant of how head bolts work and the differences between TTY and non TTY head bolts usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 Wow thanks for the quick reply ticking is piston slap and is benign, just ignore it. no easy fix. Is it common to have this on just one or two cylinders? When i scope the heads with a screwdriver its a lot lot louder or the driver side. Could it be an indication of a warped head if this is where the HG blew? Is an subscription Subaru shop manual worth it? It looks like the price is up to $35 for 72 hours now. Are the site features aside from the pdf manual that useful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) Wow thanks for the quick reply Is it common to have this on just one or two cylinders? When i scope the heads with a screwdriver its a lot lot louder or the driver side. Could it be an indication of a warped head if this is where the HG blew? Is an subscription Subaru shop manual worth it? It looks like the price is up to $35 for 72 hours now. Are the site features aside from the pdf manual that useful? yes it is common on just one cylinder, and no it is not an indicator of a warped head. it will not go away with new head gaskets and head work. it is not an indicator of future engine failure. it is a side effect of shortened and lightened piston skirts which 'slap' around in the cylinder. i have been driving a 97 outbak for 30k miles with 'the slap'. it should only be a concern if you are going to resell the car. it it hard to convince folks/buyers that it is not serious. regarding the download site; if you have a haynes manual and do a fair amount of research here before you start i don't think you will need to download. just search and read. if you have trouble, ask and search and read. the haynes manual, even with it's limitations gives you a hands on security blanket, researching the process here before you start will give you the details and the general info you need. there are info updates that are not in the haynes manual. just my opinion. of course it never hurts to have an official service manual. Edited October 29, 2009 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 The service manual site looks interesting. If you choose to go that route, just download everything you possibly can that pertains to your model year and save it on your computer, or even print it if you have to. $35 for 72 hours of access is kind of a ripoff IMO, but the information contained in the manual is well worth the cost should you ever need it. Piston slap is really nothing to worry about. There are many GM engines that do that for a hundred thousand miles or more with no ill effects. GM issued TSBs about that for multiple vehicles with their 60° family of V6 engines back in the 90's saying to just ignore it because rebuilt or even replacement engines will start doing it again in 25k miles anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I also heard some rod knock mixed in there. As far as the bolts go..... Those bolts go through a stretching process, that all I am going to say. For 50 bucks, I replace them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 The cylinder heads will need to be machined when you remove them. Not machinging them is the #1 cause for a repeat failure. The bolts do not need to be replaced as per subaru (www.endwrench.com is your freind). They are steel bolts in an aluminum block. Do a compression test before you go further, both wet and dry. This will let us know what shape the rings are in. SUbaru rings wear equally so we can make a safe assumption from the numbers you get. The ticking is normal subaru valve slap. First thing you need to do is to flush the radiator once you start. Oil and antifeeeze and air make a glue that clogs the radiator. After that you can proceed. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 Wow thanks for all the advice, I am gearing up for pulling the engine. Even though I don't have to get this back together before thanks giving I want to get the engine out now. See what the damage is and what I break taking it apart :-) Thanks for the tip about flushing the radiator too. I have noticed what looks to be some carbon buildup at the top of the coolant tank. Getting the heads machined regardless does sound like a good idea. Do the heads just need to be ground? What RA is needed? Anybody know of a good shop in the Rochester NY area? Though I have to ask how should I prep the block and why doesn't need machining? I did get a subscription to the STI site and i am in the process of downloading all the pdf's. Although its quite an exhaustive process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 The heads need to be machined we all agree. Have them also test the valves. They fill them with some break cleaner and blow some compressed air through them and check for leaks. Get those seals replaced as well if they are leaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Could it be an indication of a warped head if this is where the HG blew? No, definitely not. Is it common to have this on just one or two cylinders? When i scope the heads with a screwdriver its a lot lot louder or the driver side. i'll repeat myself: ticking is piston slap and is benign, just ignore it. no easy fix. there's a small chance it is rod knock - but piston slap is far more common. folks on here have the FSM's and will mail you digital copies, sounds like it's too late. any machine shop can do the heads, they have reference material for any head work on equipment, diesel, tractors, cars, trucks, etc- and it's a very standardized procedure and they have access to all that info. trust me, they're well versed in machining, it's their job! you'll need to tell them what you want done, not how to do their job. just machined? valve job? pressure tested? i call Subaru and find out who does their machine work and go with that if it's close and reasonable. personally i'd replace the timing belt and all the pulleys too - Ebay has complete kits for about $200. those pulleys are 10+ years old, i wouldn't trust them to make a quarter million miles on an interference engine. 2.2 swap is another option - check here for details. sometimes that's cheaper depending on your resources and you can sell your EJ25 to recoupe some costs. this is also a good option if the piston slap annoys you or you determine it's rod knock. they don't have head gasket issues, are cheaper to maintain (complete timing kits for $80) and 95-96 are non-interference engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 So yesterday I finally got enough time to try and pull the engine. I got everything off the engine and the torque converter unbolted but cant get this one bolt off the transmission. Its right in front of the half shaft, but above the cross member on the drivers side of the car. I was able to break the one on the passenger side because there was enough room to send a breaker bar up through the engine bay. But on the drivers side is much more cramped. I have ujoint socket adapter but i cant see how it will help. I feel like im going to have to pull the half shaft out :-( Any tips on getting this out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 that one is annoying, but it'll come out with normal tools, it is very tight but i've never had a problem getting to it without pulling the axles. just keep trying with that ujoint socket adapter, that should do it. try all combinations you can think of, i can't remember what i do to get at those but it's nothing odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 If it is a 4EAT, you can simply put a bar between the cup and the trans, and wedge the axle stub outward just an inch or so. If it is a 5mt, you will need ot punch the pin out. No need ot do any other axle removal. With the cup slid over, use a swivel and an extension from below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 14mm swivel socket. That's exactly why I purchased one. Works better thean a flex joint, wobble extension, etc. 14mm swivel socket (name brand/guaranteed) and a long 3/8 extension or two to get it down where you can put some leverage on it. I tend to try and break this one first. Figure I don't need it to have the additional stress of being the last nut/bolt broken loose. DOn't know if it matters or not. Worst thing would be to round off that nut - that would really be unpleasant. Buy the correct tool. I've taken to having 2 Sears. That way when I break one I still have one until I get it replaced. I believe I broke 4 last year and 2 this year. Then again I'm in the rust belt, and pull a few Suby engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 14mm swivel socket. That's exactly why I purchased one. Works better thean a flex joint, wobble extension, etc. It Works!!! I think Subaru should include one of these sockets with every car they sell. Bought it today at sears even though I didnt think it was going to work, It looked like there was enough bolt sticking out that I needed a deep socket. They only had shallow swivel so I bought it and used an extension and breaker bar, done. I had to drill out the passenger side engine mount, I guess things were just going to well. But I got the engine out and on a stand now. I tried to do a quick compression test before I pulled the motor but I dont think its valid as the engine has been sitting cold for days now and the battery started to give out in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 So i spent/wasted a good amount of time messing around with leak-down testing with the engine out of the car. All i had access to locally was a harbor freight tester, what a piece of trash even for a harbor freight tool. After my second exchange I found out that it is actually a low pressure tester and the directions for it are just written wrong and it has a 100psi regulator gauge just to mislead you? Anyways it appears that there is around 15% loss on all cylinders with this thing stone cold (its under 60 degrees here), sounds acceptable. It sound like the bulk of the air is escaping as blow by, there is also some high pitched whistling coming from the intake and exhaust valves on the left side, and slightly louder high pitched hissing coming from only the intake on the right side. With the heads off it looks like the HG was leaking at the bottom of the front right cylinder, see attached picture. Although I must say everything looked much better than I was anticipating. I will try to find a machine shop to do the head work on monday. How do you determine if you need a valve job done or not? Besides a valve job would I just need the bottoms of the heads planed for a clean surface? Would i deliver the head to a shop with the all the valves installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 At 146,000 miles it is silly not to do a valve job. Personally I would have prefered to see a compression test as it is more goof proof then a leak down test. What do the cylinder walls look like? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 At 146,000 miles it is silly not to do a valve job. Personally I would have prefered to see a compression test as it is more goof proof then a leak down test. What do the cylinder walls look like? nipper I did a quick compression test as i was pulling the engine. Note the engine was cold and the battery dies toward the end so i assumed the lower cranking rpm attributed to some of the fluctuation in readings. The test was done dry and in the order listed here. From looking at the heads it looks like the front right and left cylinders were leaking? Front Right : 132, 140, 145 Rear Right : 190, 185 Front Left : 175, 140 Rear Left : 158, 150 Left head, Right head Left block, Right block There are no visible cracks in the cylinder walls, there are a few of what looks to be "burn" marks here and there. As well as two rings at the top of each cylinder, im assuming this is where the piston rings shift when the piston reverses? I cant feel any disturbances in the surface around these marks though. Front Right, Front Left Rear Left, Rear Right As far as machine shop labor goes it looks like i should expect to pay in around $200 - $250 for the head planed and a valve job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik litchy Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 that price is very comparable to what my shop charges for a pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Ring Ridge is normal. The compression numbers are promising, so I wouldnt get excited over the leakdown tests. I mean promising that subaru wear evenly, so if they were all around 150 i would be concerned, but the high/lows tell me you had two tired HG's. This is not surprising for the mileage (It happens). I cant tell if the cylinders are scored, but if the cross hatch pattern is there, then the rings are probably ok. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThosL Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Thanks for the information, ladies and gentlemen. I have a '99 Outback--2.5 engine. Head Gasket problem--took out the thermostat, tried to put in two new ones! I tried "Blue Devil" and other other fixit in a bottle and can! I have gotten a number of estimates for the job--prices ranged from $850 to $1300 and more. Mechanic says he can get it in tomorrow for a 2-3 day job. It's a group of local sharp Latin American immigrants who seem to be sharp. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks again for the excellent site, and forgive my request for personal attention on this painful odyssey. I am a loyal Subaru owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted November 30, 2009 Author Share Posted November 30, 2009 So I got the engine back in! however it seems there is a lack of fuel. The engine will fire and buck for a few revolutions and die. Every few starts it will run well for a second or two. If i even tap the gas pedal it will instantly die. I feel that this is definitely a fuel problem or lack of it specifically. At first I thought it could just be air in the fuel rails but after about 25+ false starts over the last two days I feel I am missing something else. I did not remove any fuel components from the intake manifold when rebuilding the engine, only disconnected the lines from the fuel filter, return, and evap. I checked the whole intake, maf, and vac lines and all sensors, they look solid. I dont have the headers or either O2 sensor connected, didnt think it mattered. I took a video of a few attempts to start it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 How about the vac line to fuel pressure regulator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgrandahl Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 How about the vac line to fuel pressure regulator? Its on there never got disconnected during the procedure. Im assuming there is only one and its on the right side fuel rail? Are there any test points on the rail to check pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Sputters and dies sounds like that about 1" about foot long stiff hose that's a bit hidden. Forgive me - I don't do many Foresters. On a Legacy IIR it's on the passenger side. Goes basically from under the airbox over towards the passenger side strut tower. That's all I can remember - but it's happened enough times to me that I know it sounds like a possibility for you. Use your hands to check - not just your eyes. It can be close and look good, but not connected. Happy hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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