mdjdc Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 An engineering flaw in the original HG's does not translate to a bad motor. The Hg's have been redesigned and I have a friend who's stepson had 400k on a phase one motor after a HG replacement. Most of the people on this board do not like to see a car taken for granted and parts abused. I would rather keep a car stock and see it live out it's life being well used. Rust is one thing, but intentional abuse is just wrong. I uderstand that you have your viewpoint and many others have tried to get you to come around, but I can see you are determined to destroy this engine. Good Luck and I will say no more. My opinion has bee stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpar Mod Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) I have to agree with md here. You cannot hold the motor accountable for the failure of a gasket due to poor engineering or manufacture. I've seen this with other vehicles other than Subarus before. We own two late '90s Jeeps and they are prone to issues due to weakening valve springs. This is a well known problem with the 4.0 straight 6 engines when they have some mileage on them. This is what prompted me to buy the Outback when the head went bad on my Jeep (I'm putting another motor in it in the spring). I tried to repalce the springs on the affected cylinders but the damage had already been done. Other than this, the engines are practically bullet proof. Unfortunately, they develop head problems due to the valve springs developing failure. Now, if you talk to Jeep affecaniados, they mostly all lament the demise of the 4.0 which is no longer offered in any of the Jeep line and hasn't been for a few years now. The same should be said for the 2.5 here. It's basically a good powerplant with a fatal flaw due to a poorly made gasket. You could make the argument that Subaru should have aggressively addressed the problem and made some consideration for owners of the affected engines, but it's pretty common for the opposite to happen. Jeep never addressed the valve spring issue but it is also a well documented problem no less than the HG problem with the 2.5 is. You cannot say that either engine is junk, though. To trash it completely makes little sense to me either. Edited November 20, 2009 by Allpar Mod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 this really isn't a big deal, doesn't need to be an argument or ideological struggle. conformity is not the goal of the board. we'll all learn something from it. if i were him i would make an honest few thousands dollars in one day out of this whole deal, but i don't expect him to do what i would do. there's not much need for another EJ25 debate but they have other issues as well, like piston slap and rod bearings...seen a few rods through the block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 this really isn't a big deal, doesn't need to be an argument or ideological struggle. conformity is not the goal of the board. we'll all learn something from it. if i were him i would make an honest few thousands dollars in one day out of this whole deal, but i don't expect him to do what i would do. there's not much need for another EJ25 debate but they have other issues as well, like piston slap and rod bearings...seen a few rods through the block. EXACTLY GARY!! i could dump all kinds of money into this 2.5 and put it all back together only to have a rod bearing go and start knocking or simply come right thru the block!! but for less money and time and labor i can put a bulletproof 2.2l in it. weighing the odds, ill go with a 2.2. i need this car to make round trips from CT to NH (600 miles round trip) for the upcoming snowmobile season, because id rather drive a car getting 28-30mpg than drive my avalanche with an 8.1l big block that on a good day gets 15mpg highway. i also have my xt6 which averages 28 on the highway, but i dont want to run it thru the salty winters up here. that was the whole reason for picking up this OBW.. not to mention, i have 3 dogs that make the trip with us, and whats better than putting down the back seats and letting them get comfy in the back of the car for the trek. im sure there are plenty of 2.5s that go forever, but there are many more 2.2s that go 300k + with just routine maint. not to mention, having a non-interference motor is just another added bonus. im not trying to start a fight, or put down the motor, IMO, which im entitled to, its too big a risk to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech1967 Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Running unpresurised will accelerate the demise of the engine. If the HG job is done with care, the hose in the reservoir is cut back at an angle and the rad cap is cleaned with every oil change (6000km or 4000 miles) you won't have reoccuring failures. I am a Subaru tech that now does head gaskets for people that don't normally maintain their car with me or are passing through. I have 2 OBW that I picked up cheap and am toying with using a pressurised reservoir so the rad cap is never affected by crud on the seals and return valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpar Mod Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Hey tech'67....you have me intrigued about the radiator cap issue. Please tell me more. I haven't owned a Soob since my last Loyale so I want to learn as much about this OBW as I can to keep it on the road as long as possible. And mp, nobody's picking a fight. Nobody can blame anyone for wanting a bulletproof car, or at least one major part of one, on the cheap. I guess we just have our opinions on what we'd do in your situation. Do what you gotta do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Running unpresurised will accelerate the demise of the engine. If the HG job is done with care, the hose in the reservoir is cut back at an angle and the rad cap is cleaned with every oil change (6000km or 4000 miles) you won't have reoccuring failures. I am a Subaru tech that now does head gaskets for people that don't normally maintain their car with me or are passing through. I have 2 OBW that I picked up cheap and am toying with using a pressurised reservoir so the rad cap is never affected by crud on the seals and return valve. if the headgaskets arent leaking, then you shouldnt have to worry about "crud" on the rad cap. if you change the fluid at normal intervals, it should stay nice and clean. the way this car is running, i really dont think im hurting anything with the motor, i wouldnt be surprised if i can put several thousand miles on it b4 it goes. and itll prob go because of a broken t-belt or something else. the reason i dont want to just do the HGs on this car is because i bought it with a bad headgasket (didnt know it at the time as it overheated intermittently and not on testdrive) but i have no idea just how bad, and how long it was overheated for before me. Edited November 21, 2009 by themoneypit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskan 2 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Subaru has copied the head gasket that was designed by Kirt at AAA theshop subaru repair years ago. These HG should fix the problems that the EJ25 DOHC has. SUBARU's number is #11044AA610A these HG's are 101mm 045" MSL gaskets for the DOHC 16V EJ25 Not only does Kirt tell me but the owner of the Yellow cab fleet (they have LOTS of Subie cab's) These HG seam to fix the HG issues. LOTS of subie cabs in Anchorage. They are one of the best sellers cars in ALASKA. If you use these newly designed gaskets then you MUST set the value clearance !!!!!!!!! Need a GOOD feeler gauge and Micrometer and remember that these are in MM. I have done six (6) HG jobs using these new style gaskets and have had no problems. DON"T relie of the subie parts person for help (info) as I have found most of them are CLUELESS. Thanks KIRT. Edited November 21, 2009 by alaskan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGromada Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Wow this thread hits home for me. I think i documented all my problems which are very similar in another thread. Ultimately it will need a new head gasket and it pays to have a good mechanic. I was very thrilled with mine even though the repair set me back something like $1400 (and this was at 119,000 mi) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 engine swap stuff is covered zillions of times here, so searching will answer any and all questions. EJ22 direct swap candidates are 1995-1998 EGR equipped EJ22's. 1995 Automatic (manuals don't have EGR) 1996-1998 with exhaust manifold If you don't care about the check engine light then any 1995-1998 EJ22 will work, I installed a non-EGR on purpose because i like more reliability and dislike EGR. I could care less about check engine lights but in your state you probably don't have a choice. I found my donor car with a 2.2l 102k miles. it doesnt have the egr, so gary, im wondering if you ever tried swapping ECUs with a non egr motor to hopefully avoid CELs?? i bought the entire car, a 96 legacy 2.2l 5spd AWD, the motor is going into my 97 OBW 5spd AWD. should i try and swap the ECU from the 96 along with the engine swap?? also, just curious if the 5spd AWD trannies are the same and geared the same between the 2 cars. inwhich case i may swap the entire engine/trans into my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 The 2.2 ans the 2.5 trannies are not the same. The final drive ratios are different. You can do the swap, but you will have to swap over the rear from the donor car as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 so gary, im wondering if you ever tried swapping ECUs with a non egr motor to hopefully avoid CELs?? doesn't work, already discussed in details here why. lots of little details, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 doesn't work, already discussed in details here why. lots of little details, etc. oh ok.. ill try and run the car thru emissions b4 i do the swap, because i have no CEL on right now. seems like everytime i try and search on here, i can never find what im looking for having that CEL on doesnt affect the 2.2l does it? will it affect gas mileage etc.. just curious i am going to need a left outer t-belt cover if anyone has an extra laying around. ill post in parts needed section too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 swapping ECU's is not the final solution. if you're swapping to a manual trans though you're fine, just ground the appropriate pin for manual trans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted December 8, 2009 Author Share Posted December 8, 2009 yeah, im swapping it into a manual trans car. so hope it all goes nice and smooth... i just ordered new clutch kit, and new timing overhaul kit (belts/tensioners/water pump/seals/gaskets/etc...) so as soon as those parts are in, this swap is ON!!! cant wait.. should be good to go for atleast 100k with it all freshened up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 yep, easy straight forward swap that's been done lots o' times so you're golden. enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 (edited) donor motor is out and on an engine stand. its amazingly clean behind the timing covers with absolutely no signs of oil leaking. basically new belt, waterpump, valve cover gaskets, plugs, wires, pcv, and clutch kit, and im ready for install!! cant wait. as soon as the clutch kit comes in, im going to finish it. was going to do seals, tensioners, etc... but it all looks mint, and quiet as can be, so why fix it if it aint broke lol. quick question on the exhaust thou. this car has both 02 sensors in the front cat. my OBW has one in the front, one in the rear resonator on the center pipe. should i use the whole exhaust from the 2.2, or unbolt it b4 the cat and just use the actual Y from the 2.2? Edited December 9, 2009 by themoneypit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 nice hit on the timing belt junk, that's awesome. yeah you got it right - use just the EJ22 y pipe, it bolts right up to the EJ25, same flange. i've never seen 2 O2 sensors in the front - except for the new H6's, but that's different. sounds odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 My 99 outback had bot o2 sensors in the front cat and that is why I think I was getting the O2 inefficiency CEL code. I was going to swap in another rear cat with a bung, but I sold the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 man how bizarre, so does Subaru have a reason for this, surely it's not just random? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 nice hit on the timing belt junk, that's awesome. yeah you got it right - use just the EJ22 y pipe, it bolts right up to the EJ25, same flange. i've never seen 2 O2 sensors in the front - except for the new H6's, but that's different. sounds odd. yeah im syked about it.. cant wait till its all together and done!! ill hit subaru tomorrow and get some exhaust manifold gaskets and front cat gasket. i also need to order inner and outer left side timing cover. hoping to rip that parts car apart in the next few days if all goes well, ill let you know how that left rear hub looks when i get it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 man how bizarre, so does Subaru have a reason for this, surely it's not just random? i dunno it has one sticking out the front like my outback, the other sticks straight out the top about 6 inches back. i thought it was odd too?? love the way you can drop the entire exhaust system in one piece thou. that was nice, figured id have to cut some muffler bolts, but it wraps under the rear axle instead of over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 If I were you, I would use the rear cat that has the O2 sensor in it and use the extension wire over the tranny to get it to plug into the harness. I think if you don't, you are going to get the dreaded O2 sensor ineficiency code. Just my 2 cents Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 you probably already know but the Subaru exhaust gaskets are way nicer than aftermarkets. because of that the Subaru gaskets are amazingly reusable, i've done it countless times. if they look decent, they'll work fine. but they're cheap and easy to replace so who cares. strange i've yet to see one of the O2 set ups like that. so basically the rear O2 is way up front - it's prior to the cat or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted December 12, 2009 Author Share Posted December 12, 2009 you probably already know but the Subaru exhaust gaskets are way nicer than aftermarkets. because of that the Subaru gaskets are amazingly reusable, i've done it countless times. if they look decent, they'll work fine. but they're cheap and easy to replace so who cares. strange i've yet to see one of the O2 set ups like that. so basically the rear O2 is way up front - it's prior to the cat or something? completely agree on oem gaskets. already bought a set. every subaru that ive ever worked on its exhaust has gotten oem gaskets (and its quite a few from ripping them off in the woods back in the day). i tried aftermarkets once and they leaked within 1000 miles. im using my complete exhaust except for the front pipe, so ill keep the better set up. cant wait for the rest of the parts to get here so i can tear into this project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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