themoneypit Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) ok, so my 97 OBW has blown headgaskets, i know big surprise huh!! so anyway, i read somewhere on here about removing the thermostat and you can drive it like that. so i removed it, and wondering how long i can go like this. it runs in the cold all the time, unless parked idling, then it will reach normal temp range. im no longer blowing all the coolant out of the resevoir bottle, however it still bubbles in there. i just cant see spending a ton of money to have the headgasket job done. and kind of hoping for a quick fix. im in CT, so winter is around the corner. it seems to have decent heat rite now with the t-stat out, is it going to be enough once winter sets in thou? anyone in or near CT that does these headgasket jobs cheap? Edited December 7, 2009 by themoneypit update the situation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondasucks Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I'd just do the head gasket job, it may be expensive but it's cheaper than buying a new car, unless your car is a rust bucket. Running it without the thermostat will work however in the cold weather it may not warm up enough to go open loop so your fuel mileage will suffer. You might try some of the Subaru cooling system conditioner, that MIGHT take care of the leak. They also have other types of "head gasket in a bottle" type stuff that seems to work pretty well, they are no substitute for new head gaskets though. Also, are you sure they are blown and you don't just have a stuck T stat, clogged radiator, or bad radiator cap? Any of these could make the bottle overflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) i first thought it was a bad thermostat. lower hose wouldnt get hot, and radiator cap was never hot either. i replaced it, same results. to be honest, i just bought the car recently. ran fine on test drive, temp guage read normal, below half, after driving for a couple days, i smelled antifreeze when i parked it. popped the hood and saw it shooting out of the little hole in the top front of the resevoir. after reading several posts on here about the phase I 2.5l, it has all the signs of the HG being bad.. car is very clean, no rust, 131k on it. but i dont have any idea if/how bad it was ever overheated by P/O. i bought it as a winter car, because i dont want to drive my super clean xt6 thru the salt, and my avalanche has a big block in it, so gas mileage in that kills me. i think i made a huge mistake thou!! Edited November 12, 2009 by themoneypit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 you probably have beginning head gasket failure - the start by randomly overheating at first. be interested to see if it overheats without the t-stat, i would think it'll still overheat. air pockets cause it to overheat, i can't see a tstat making much difference but being where it's located on the pump, maybe it will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 you probably have beginning head gasket failure - the start by randomly overheating at first. be interested to see if it overheats without the t-stat, i would think it'll still overheat. air pockets cause it to overheat, i can't see a tstat making much difference but being where it's located on the pump, maybe it will? hey gary.. now that the tstat is removed, the car runs in the cold basically. itll get to temp if it sits and idles, but while driving it, its barely above the C on the guage. also, i dont think the system will build pressure with it out, so hopefully itll be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I'd ask the following questions of yourself- 1.) If the problem gets worse, how do you plan to fix it- head gaskets or an engine swap? If you're planning on doing HG anyway, do it now to prevent additional damage. If you're going to just swap the engine, it doesn't matter if you cause additional damage to it, so just drive it 'till it drops. 2.) Do you drive in areas where a breakdown would have serious consequences? (i.e. high crime area or desolate winter wastelands.) Nathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I have also heard of running with a bad head gasket by loosening the vent screw/bolt at the top corner of the radiator on the opposite side from the radiator cap. This helps vent out exhaust gas that is entering the cooling system via the bad head gasket. A very tiny amount of coolant will escape from the cooling system, and the cooling system won't pressurize, but it will help your motor from over heating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 that's awesome, if it prevents it from getting air locked or whatever and doesn't run hot you're golden until it probably starts loosing coolant to fast to add it. in my experience (though not with EJ25's), running with blown headgaskets does two things. first it gradually gets worse, of course you guessed that would happen. and significant engine/head damage occurs in less than a year (i probably have old heads/pictures). the leak will cause deterioration and loss of metal where the gasket is breached. not sure if that's due to localized heat or what, but the metal wears away like finely carved channels from water in rock. can't think of another way to explain it. so, you might consider this temporary or like he said above, plan on an engine swap, or at least inspect the block/heads before repairing obviously. good luck and report back as time goes on, curious to see how this progresses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Just fix the car. Running without a t-stat will cause: Very Poor gas mileage Oil never reaching optimal temp, so lost of contamination Fouled plugs No heat in winter Your system WILL pressurize by the high pressure gas leak from the combustion gasses. Driving the car like this you have a much higher chance of ruining the bottom end of the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 I know i should just have it fixed, but cant afford a 2k bill rite now!! SO if i was to swap a 2.2l into this 97 OBW 5spd, what years are an exact fit? does the donor car have to be auto or manual? this is prob the route i will go, as reading all the HG failures, and re-failures etc... id rather put a bulletproof 2.2l in her. as of now, ive put over 100 miles on it w/o the t-stat w/o any overheating or bubbling out of the overflow bottle. i know its not good for the motor, but hey these motors are no good anyways atleast from what ive read thus far.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I know i should just have it fixed, but cant afford a 2k bill rite now!! SO if i was to swap a 2.2l into this 97 OBW 5spd, what years are an exact fit? does the donor car have to be auto or manual? this is prob the route i will go, as reading all the HG failures, and re-failures etc... id rather put a bulletproof 2.2l in her. as of now, ive put over 100 miles on it w/o the t-stat w/o any overheating or bubbling out of the overflow bottle. i know its not good for the motor, but hey these motors are no good anyways atleast from what ive read thus far.... So you always believe what you read on the net? These are very good engines, powerful and durable. They have a weak HG design which many engines had in the same years. To call these negines no good is just pure rubbish. Also if you can do all the work yourself it is NOT 2K to fix. Hell it isnt even 2K to fix when somebody else does it. Right now the engine may be damaged from a dollar wise penny foolish philosophy. By the time you get the engine, do the work, replace all the bits you should with the engine out (timing belt water pump reseal everything and tune up and valve cover gaskets) it can come slose to the HG job (doing it yourself). nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 engine swap stuff is covered zillions of times here, so searching will answer any and all questions. EJ22 direct swap candidates are 1995-1998 EGR equipped EJ22's. 1995 Automatic (manuals don't have EGR) 1996-1998 with exhaust manifold If you don't care about the check engine light then any 1995-1998 EJ22 will work, I installed a non-EGR on purpose because i like more reliability and dislike EGR. I could care less about check engine lights but in your state you probably don't have a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 wow you guys are quick... or im slow LOL.. i just started a new thread for the swap info i was looking for, and you already posted here (thanks gary).. i see a 97 legacy with 80k on NEW motor (not rebuilt) on craigslist. i may try and scoop up that whole car if it has an egr. i HATE check engine lights, drives me crazy, so ill have to make sure it has the egr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 wow you guys are quick... or im slow LOL.. i just started a new thread for the swap info i was looking for, and you already posted here (thanks gary).. i see a 97 legacy with 80k on NEW motor (not rebuilt) on craigslist. i may try and scoop up that whole car if it has an egr. i HATE check engine lights, drives me crazy, so ill have to make sure it has the egr. New = Rebuilt. There is nothing wrong with a rebuilt engine. The only way it is new if it was taken off the assembly line from subaru with zero miles on it. I have a subaru rebuilt engine in my car, it's fine. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 So you always believe what you read on the net? These are very good engines, powerful and durable. They have a weak HG design which many engines had in the same years. To call these negines no good is just pure rubbish. Also if you can do all the work yourself it is NOT 2K to fix. Hell it isnt even 2K to fix when somebody else does it. Right now the engine may be damaged from a dollar wise penny foolish philosophy. By the time you get the engine, do the work, replace all the bits you should with the engine out (timing belt water pump reseal everything and tune up and valve cover gaskets) it can come slose to the HG job (doing it yourself). nipper im not knocking the engine, i love the power and all that my OBW has. i just think that given subarus prior engines and all, that this motor IMHO is crap. ive owned more subarus than i have had underwear, and never had a bad HG on any of them. im talking from 79 being my oldest wagon, to 20 or so early 80's wagons/hatches (still have one with a plow on it ), atleast a dozen xt6's, a 90 loyale rs, few early legacys with 2.2s etc.. ive read alot about these 2.5s now that i have one (shouldve done it b4 i bought it LOL), and the fact that subaru wont admit fault to the phase I motor, and offers a "conditioner" (which is just a stopleak in a bottle) for the phase II motor is absolutely ridiculous. but hey, whatre u gonna do right. that is why i said the motors are crap, because ill tell you now, if i spend 1500-2000 for a HG job, and in 40k miles they go again, id prob just put the thing into a tree and collect the ins on it. how much difference in performance from a 2.2l to a 2.5l is there? will i have a slug if i put a 2.2 in her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 engine swap stuff is covered zillions of times here, so searching will answer any and all questions. EJ22 direct swap candidates are 1995-1998 EGR equipped EJ22's. 1995 Automatic (manuals don't have EGR) 1996-1998 with exhaust manifold If you don't care about the check engine light then any 1995-1998 EJ22 will work, I installed a non-EGR on purpose because i like more reliability and dislike EGR. I could care less about check engine lights but in your state you probably don't have a choice. which 96-98's had exhaust manifolds? auto/standard? or was it just a crap shoot when you bought one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 how much difference in performance from a 2.2l to a 2.5l is there? Having owned both and driven as daily drivers, there is not much HP advantage in the 2.5 over the 2.2. The 2.2 is not a slug. You won't miss the tiny HP advantage of the 2.5. I would not hesitate to do the swap, if my current 2.5 bit the dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I had a legacy with a 2.2 and my outback with a 2.5, I prefer the 2.5, but with a manual it wont matter to most people. Sit down and do all the math first before you put another unknown in the mix. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 I had a legacy with a 2.2 and my outback with a 2.5, I prefer the 2.5, but with a manual it wont matter to most people. Sit down and do all the math first before you put another unknown in the mix. nipper im trying to... i just went to our local "subaru specialist" and he quoted me 1750 to do the HGs and that doesnt include new t-belt and other goodies on the front of the motor. he claims it is 24 hours labor to do the job..... im pretty sure i can get it done cheaper/or the same at the dealer??? so that is definitly OUT OF THE QUESTION!! id rather put collision on it and stuff it into a tree at that rate.. i figure i could find a rotted out legacy with a 2.2 in it and get it cheap. that way i could trouble shoot b4 i pull it and make sure its good to go if i decide not to total this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 im trying to... i just went to our local "subaru specialist" and he quoted me 1750 to do the HGs and that doesnt include new t-belt and other goodies on the front of the motor. he claims it is 24 hours labor to do the job..... im pretty sure i can get it done cheaper/or the same at the dealer??? so that is definitly OUT OF THE QUESTION!! id rather put collision on it and stuff it into a tree at that rate.. i figure i could find a rotted out legacy with a 2.2 in it and get it cheap. that way i could trouble shoot b4 i pull it and make sure its good to go if i decide not to total this one He was on drugs, sniffing to much part cleaner fluid. He may have meant it took a day to do it, as 24 hrs is 2400 dollars. And at that price there is zero reason whay it should not incl;ude a new timing belt. You can find it cheaper. If you look for a 2.2, find one that was toalted from anyplace behind the engine. A rotted out car usually means a poorly maintained engine (why throw money into the rust bucket). nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 He was on drugs, sniffing to much part cleaner fluid. He may have meant it took a day to do it, as 24 hrs is 2400 dollars. And at that price there is zero reason whay it should not incl;ude a new timing belt. You can find it cheaper. If you look for a 2.2, find one that was toalted from anyplace behind the engine. A rotted out car usually means a poorly maintained engine (why throw money into the rust bucket). nipper that would be ideal to find one totalled in the azz end. but id be happy to just find something. theres a used 2.5l on craigslist for 300, but who knows how many miles, and if the HGs are shot on that one too... there were also a couple 2.2s on there i inquired about. hopefully ill hear something back from one of these... the "subaru specialist" also told me, i have a 2.2 completely rebuilt that i could sell you for $2500.... i think i agree with you that hes been sniffing the parts cleaner or something... ive delt with the guy b4, he thinks everything he has is "gold" and worth a fortune. he was a xt fanatic, and those parts are hard to find for an xt, so i had to deal with him on those, but c'mon 2500 for a freakin 2.2l subaru engine, theyre a dime a dozen now that im looking in that direction.. for gits and shiggles im going to call my local dealer monday and see what they charge for the HG job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 the last quote i got around here was 900$ and that included checking the heads. i'm not sure about the t-belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Wow: 1700.00 is outrageous!!! I do them for 1100.00 and that includes all seals water pump and a new OEM timing belt. Another 100.00 if youwant all new idlers and tensioner. 24 hours is a bunch of horse sh... My best friend is a mechanic and his book lists 10 hours. Your guy has his head up his azz. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 Wow: 1700.00 is outrageous!!! I do them for 1100.00 and that includes all seals water pump and a new OEM timing belt. Another 100.00 if youwant all new idlers and tensioner. 24 hours is a bunch of horse sh... My best friend is a mechanic and his book lists 10 hours. Your guy has his head up his azz. Good luck i know i know... he says he does atleast one a week!! so if that is true, he should be able to bang them out in no time.. i guess i was kind of hoping he would give me a break since i had him do a ton of work on my first xt6 (hence the username "themoneypit") but hindsight, thinking back to that car, the guy was a complete tool.. he pulled the motor to do a clutch and it wouldnt run right when he put it back together.. charged me a small fortune for the job too. ended up figuring out the problem on subaruxt.com and told him how to fix it i love these forums, theyre the best... i wish u were closer to me, id prob have you do them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themoneypit Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 ok, so the more i think about this, the more im leaning towards a 2.2l swap... question is, what should i do for a clutch? order one for the 2.2l or get one for the 2.5l. can i use my flywheel on the 2.2l automatic motor, or do i have to get a different one? or is it all the same clutch/flywheel etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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