mtskibum16 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 So I picked up a 97 Outback with a seized cam as a little project. I got the car for a good price ($300) and the rest of the car is in good shape and it's got 130k on it. I know the old owner and the car was in good shape otherwise. May need head gaskets but he never had overheating problems. So I'm thinking I'll just fix it and sell it as I don't really need another car right now. So here's the question. Grab a new head and throw it on there (do the head gaskets while I'm at it obviously) and some other odds and ends including waterpump and timing belt, etc. OR I have a source for a good running 2.5L from a 96 Outback ($500) that I don't THINK has HG problems but not positive. So I might have to do the HG on it anyways. Or I could just slap it in do the timing belt and call it good. The thing is I'm a little torn. I obviously want to take the easiest/cheapest way, but I also don't feel right selling a car that is going to break down on the next guy. What's the least amount I should to to either engine to be able to say I've done my part in making sure it will be good for the next guy? Thanks for the help guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzam Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 This is an interference engine so you may have damage you wouldn't find until you pull the heads on both sides if the T-belt slipped or snapped. Ideal would be a 2.2 transplant from a 95. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Swapping in another EJ25 is fine. I prefer selling a good car to folks too, like you. But in this case people in the market for an EJ25 vehicle are going to be looking at lots of other vehicles with unknown EJ25's on it. But I find it easier to get higher money on ones up to date - new head gaskets, timing belts, etc. You can ask more and get it, of course some people are just cheap and low ballers and don't care, just pass on them. You're fine either way, I think you'll have an easier to sell car with better chances of more $ if you attack the HG's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 I know it's an interference engine. The pulley did break so the belt came off. I realize there's a chance of engine damage. Not sure if this means anything or not but I can turn the engine over by hand (turned the crank pulley to remove torque converter bolts) and it will turn all the way around. It was driving at very low speed when the cam seized and I wonder if it just got lucky. Don't know though. Also, since I got the car so cheap I'm not really looking to squeeze out every last penny on the sale so I might be able to sell it for more if I do all the extra work but probably only as much more as I put in to it. Another question, why does the factory service manual show pulling the cams to remove the head? Is this necessary or only if you're pulling the head with the engine installed? I have thought about the 2.2L swap but it seems like the average person (that doesn't know the odds and ends of these cars) would see that as a negative and it would bring the value down. I might do that if I was keeping it because I don't care but I just want to sell it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 when these things interfere it's the valves that get bent, there's no piston damage. and without the timing belt the engine will turn over just fine because the cams will end up in the "relaxed" non interference position once the belt breaks, so they all turn over just fine. since they only incur valve damage, the heads are easy to repair if necessary. the only reason i wouldn't is that if the cam seized, that's likely due to oil starvation - were any other parts compromised as a result of that oil supply issue to that cam or just the cam? this is not an unheard of issue and has happened before, if other folks have fixed it i'd just repair it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strat Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 if the cam locked up though, you'll have scoring on the cam and the caps/journals in the head (just dealt with one that had the same problem) it could also be caused by improper assembly if the head gaskets had been done recently (mismatched caps/improper torque specs) i took the "replace one head and call it good method and it's running fine so far. you do need to remove the cams as some of the head bolts are underneath the cams. make sure to keep the caps at the proper location on the cams and keep the correct valve buckets in the correct order. (ie lay everything out the way it came off the engine to insure it goes back together correctly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsir08 Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I have some mint 97 2.5 heads for sale. They're fresh rebuilds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 when these things interfere it's the valves that get bent, there's no piston damage. and without the timing belt the engine will turn over just fine because the cams will end up in the "relaxed" non interference position once the belt breaks, so they all turn over just fine. since they only incur valve damage, the heads are easy to repair if necessary. the only reason i wouldn't is that if the cam seized, that's likely due to oil starvation - were any other parts compromised as a result of that oil supply issue to that cam or just the cam? this is not an unheard of issue and has happened before, if other folks have fixed it i'd just repair it. Well if the cam seizes it can't go to the relaxed position so if it's not hitting now it's because either it's not interfering or the valves got bent out of the way I guess. Who knows on the other side. I'm guessing it's easy to tell if the valves got bent? I've looked into the issue on the forums. Seems as it's usually just something clogging the oil port to the cam. I wouldn't fix the head anyways, just replace it. Strat, thanks for the input. I'm thinking I might just do that too. Seems a pretty easy route. What's a used head usually go for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 I have some mint 97 2.5 heads for sale. They're fresh rebuilds. This probably isn't the right place to discuss the sale of parts, but PM me with what you're hoping to get for them. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 A 96 2.5 engine requires premium fuel. Keep that in mind. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 A 96 2.5 engine requires premium fuel. Keep that in mind. Really? Why is that? I've never heard that before. Isn't it even less power than the 97+? Seems strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 its well known. 1996: First year for the 'real' Outback. Also first year for the 2.5L engine, which in '96 runs on premium fuel and is only available with an automatic transmssion. The manual uses the 2.2L engine and has the hill holder clutch. http://www.cars101.com/outback_archive95-97.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted December 20, 2009 Author Share Posted December 20, 2009 Interesting....never knew. Learn something every day Question: Since the 96 needs premium and the 97 doesn't, can you use the 96 engine with the 97 ecu? Was it the tuning of the 96 that required premium? If that's the case then will you still need premium if you're using the 97 tune on a 96 engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 We've mixed and matched 96 and 97-99 heads, shortblocks and ECU's in all sorts of combinations. All ran on regular gas, no issues. I know what the book says, but.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsir08 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Delete some PM's mtskibum16. It wont let me send anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Strange...there's only like 5 in there. ??? So, swap head(s) or swap engine? The engine is coming out either way. $500 for an engine that ran well when the car was wrecked. What, $300 for heads probably? Opinions? Seems like the engine swap might be easier but it's pretty close I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsir08 Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Head swap would leave you knowing the headgaskets are mint, and you won't have to worry about what condition the used motor is in. It may be fine but could need head gaskets in a month, you'll never know. Motor swap would probably be easier, but new heads would leave you with a better motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 the wrecked car is a good bet, it was known running before it was wrecked. ask the previous owners if the head gaskets were ever replaced? offer then $100 less? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Both good points Gsir08 and grossgary. Doesn't help me much though since they're both good points I won't be able to get info from the previous owner I don't think. I guess since I'm planning to sell it I'm not looking for the way to get the best possible engine, but rather to make the most money with the least time/headache spent while still delivering a reasonably reliable vehichle to the next guy. As was brought up previously, it wouldn't be any different selling it with the other motor in there for the buyer than buying any other used Outback with similar mileage. I guess I'll have to look in to what all I'd need to buy inorder to do the head swap (gaskets, bolts, seals, etc) and compare that price plus heads to the price of the used motor. hmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted May 1, 2010 Author Share Posted May 1, 2010 I know this is old but I have an update.... Well the other car I was fixing is long gone, and I just starting pulling the motor with the seized cam apart. There was some RTV (gray) blocking the oil port in the cam journal and the said RTV was spread over the journal surface - apparently RTV isn't a good lubricant! So I have new heads ready to go on this block, but I'm wondering if I should check the oil ports for more blockage or clean them out and if so how. Also, where would this RTV have come from? Possibly from an oil pump install with too much RTV used? I can see to the back or the oil feed port in the block and it's clear. Is there any chance this was the only glob of RTV and I won't need to worry about it or should I be concerned there is more in the system? Thanks for your help. I was hoping to get the heads on today but I think I'll wait for some responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 that's a hard one. i'd probably do the heads on both side, redo the oil pump and call it a day, should be fine. the one time i saw this, cam gallery stuffed with RTV on an older engine, a thorough cleaning and reinstall was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtskibum16 Posted May 5, 2010 Author Share Posted May 5, 2010 I ended up inspecting the ports on the block as good as I could, then sprayed brake fluid down through them with the oil filter off. Maybe if there was anything else in the lines that would help dislodge it - I don't know. Anyways, bolted on the freshly machined/pressure tested heads and installed the cams on the passenger side. I still need 3 lifter shims for the other head then I'll get that side back together. The oil pump isn't leaking, do you really think it's necessary to reseal it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 5, 2010 Share Posted May 5, 2010 The oil pump isn't leaking, do you really think it's necessary to reseal it?you can leave it for later. if you need to pull the tbelt again in a year or two to reseal the pump you can without much of a glitch. another $500 in labor next year that could have been avoided is a good call for folks paying labor. if it's not leaking then you'd be resealing it for two reasons: 1. just to have it done and in the hopes it'll last until your next timing belt change at 100,000 miles. i like the idea of not needing to go in there again. 2. the backing plate screws are often loose. retighten them with locktite. but, i'm not sure i've ever actually heard of issues due to this common problem, but i do it anyway since i'm usually resealing due to reason #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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