spikedbeetle Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 I recently had my heads rebuilt. I heard I am supposed to re-tourque them after 100 miles or so. I have coolant leaking or seeping out of my head gaskets. Is this normal after 3-4 hours run time? Will re-torquing fix this or do I have to put new gaskets on again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 i'm not super familiar with retorquing heads but i believe you're not supposed to drive the car. i think it's supposed to get up to operating temperature then retorque. that being said if you end up needing to re-do it, there's a much simpler way. get the Fel Pro Permatorque gaskets, that's what nearly everyone on here uses. they're designed to not need retorqued, well worth it. many of us crank them an additional 5-10 pounds too just for good measure. as to retorquing already leaking heads, i'm not sure about that. my guess is that it's not ideal but will probably buy you time. i've *heard* people even say they've tigthened old heads before that were leaking to slow down/stop leaks. that's not ideal obviously but if that actually did anything you *might* have a chance retorquing these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 18, 2010 Author Share Posted January 18, 2010 Thanks...I used felpro gaskets and was very careful about torquing the heads to exact specs. I guess if you guys give an extra 5-10 pounds, I may try that to see if it works. If I do have to get more and start over, where do you get the permatorque gaskets, and what is the difference? How do they work? I had to buy a complete gasket set to get the set on my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 the permatorques are just plain head gaskets, etc, nothing all that special about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Autozone has them individually for like ~$15 each or something. As far as I know Fel-Pro only makes the PT head gaskets for EA's - they don't make one that *isn't* a perma-torque model. Seepage is definitely not normal. Did you check the heads for flatness with a metal straight-edge? I always add 5 and round up on the torque. The torque on these is fairly light to begin with and I don't get my torque insturment's calibrated often enough so a little CYA is called for. Experience has shown they handle it without trouble. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 18, 2010 Author Share Posted January 18, 2010 I got the engine from a junk yard. I wasn't sure if it would run or not, so I took the heads off to see what the insides looked like. I could still see almost all of the factory crosshatching. I took the heads to a machine shop while they were off and got them worked over. New seals, valves, resurfaced, etc...I feel pretty confident the heads are good, I am just wondering if my torque wrench is off or if the recent cold weather had something to do with it. I guess I will try adding a few pounds of torque and see what happens, If I can really get good gaskets for $15 ea. I will only really be out time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 Yeah - try the Autozone web site. I was quoted like $40 each from one of the stores and I brought in the web price and they matched it. Something about them being a franchise I think. Anyway - they aren't real bad. I always use them but get most of the other stuff from the dealer. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 18, 2010 Author Share Posted January 18, 2010 Suck! Just when I thought I had everything fixed. I started the car up to warm the engine. It started to blow some steam out the exhaust. I guess I will be pulling the engine...again...I went ahead and checked my torque just to satisfy my curiosity. I set my wrench to 72ft lbs. It clicked right away. I also checked my oil to find what looked like water droplets mixed in. I guess i will be making a trip to autozone in the near future for some new gaskets. I just have a few questions for the next time so I wont have to do this again. What are you guys for touque settings? What is the proper procedure for assembling the engine? I know the torque pattern. I mean, how long do I run it? When do I torque and retorque? And most importantly, how long do I have to wait before I can roast the tires and drive 80+mph? How do I not get leaky gaskets? I am just about ready to go back to air-cooled. Will it hurt the engine to let it sit with antifreeze in the cicyndars? Possibly for a few months... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Before you start ripping into the engine again, check the intake gaskets. If they leak internally, coolant can get into the cylinders, mimicking a bad head gasket. An external leak from the intake gaskets will allow coolant to flow down around the head and drip from the underside near the HG area. Just my .02, but it may save you time and money..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 Thanks for the 2 cents. Those are sealed up good. When I started the car yesterday, I only let it run for a minute or two and I could see coolant seeping out the top of the heads. I am thinking about some minor sheet metal trimming so I don't actually have to pull the engine. Wishful thinking. I guess it only takes about 20-30 min. to get it out anyway. I just ordered a set of gaskets. They were $42 shipped for the pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 There's no need to pull the engine to do the head gaskets on these. They're so easy to do in the car I wouldn't waste the time. These are fairly easy to get seated. Follow the procedures properly and basically %100 success rate, it's not a crap shoot. Not having been there I can't say what went wrong, but something did. If you think you torqued everything down just fine then the heads need to be checked and possibly the block face, but that's rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 There's no need to pull the engine to do the head gaskets on these. They're so easy to do in the car I wouldn't waste the time. These are fairly easy to get seated. Follow the procedures properly and basically %100 success rate, it's not a crap shoot. Not having been there I can't say what went wrong, but something did. If you think you torqued everything down just fine then the heads need to be checked and possibly the block face, but that's rare. This motor is in a VW beetle. May not be so easy. Also does this motor by chance have a weber? and if so was the coolant port in the intake blocked before it was installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 If you have leakage from the top of the head you should verify that it is not coming from the intake gaskets. They leak a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danthecarman Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I know that this might be a silly question, but did you tighten in the correct order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 I took the heads to a machine shop for a valve job and resurfacing. They said the heads were flat but cleaned them up just cause. I got the torque #'s and sequencing order from a subaru dealer. I stood there while they looked them up and then printed of the papers for me. Here are some pics of the even seepage. I guess I will check the heads against the block for block warpage. I am more of an experimentor than a mechanic. All the measurements are as close to as exact as I could get. I am just wondering if I was pushing the gas pedal too far too soon. How long should I wait to step on all the way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 20, 2010 Author Share Posted January 20, 2010 I just found an old thread about retorqing heads. There was a point made by someone that the old nuts on the old studs can have extra friction from rust and other crap causing the torque readings to be off. I guess I will oil up the threads this time and run the nuts on and off a few times to clean them up good. Then I will overtorque by 5-10lbs as suggested earlier. I caught the leak pretty quick. No milshake stuff. I will drain the oil to check it, and probably just change it for good measure even though it's only been in there for 30 miles. I have had a couple people tell me they put a very thin film of a high temp silicone on both sides of the gaskets. You guys have any opinions on doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'subaru Posted January 22, 2010 Share Posted January 22, 2010 How smooth were the heads after surfacing? Ive seen them surfaced anywhere from almost a mirror finish to being grooved or extremely grooved. Think it mainly depends on the condition of the machine shops equip. I had seepage on one of these heavily grooved surface jobs. Now I ask up front what to expect from their equipment. Also I bottom tap blocks, chase threads on head bolts, use oil etc. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 I've never used anything on Head Gaskets - and never had a set leak either. I would say it's uneccesary at best and could cause problems with the gasket bonding to the sufaces at worst. Definitely chase all the threads, wire wheel the studs/bolts, and oil them durring installation and torqueing. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share Posted January 24, 2010 Good to know about the silicone. I was hoping to spend the day changing gaskets and getting everything re-assembled, but my gaskets aren't here yet. I will post a picture of the head surfaces when I pull them off. They were certainly not mirror smooth when I got them back from the machine shop. I wondered about the grooves when I picked them up, but I figured that a well known machine shop would do it right. This could be a possible explain for the even seepage. Maybe when I get the heads off, I will be able to tell if that had anything to do with it. Thanks for all the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Suface finish is a BIG topic, and different types of gaskers require different finishes. Typically these older engines like a rougher finish than the newer engines with MLM (mulit-layer-metal) head gaskets. The graphite in the older style gaskets tends to grip better when there is some roughness. Mirror finish would not be appropriate at all in the case of the EA engines. The finish you get by lapping the heads using about a 400 grit paper should be more than sufficient for EA head gaskets. Definitely no smoother. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted January 24, 2010 Author Share Posted January 24, 2010 GD, 400 grit sounds about like the finish they had. They felt smooth. They just weren't "reflective". So, I guess that is good news. I will still post pics of the heads and possibly the gaskets to get opinions. I am kind-of hoping that I just undertorqued everything so I can just clean things up and put it back it back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted February 4, 2010 Author Share Posted February 4, 2010 Well, I started taking my engine apart. So far everything seems good. I really hope it was just my original torque readings on my heads that were off. Here is a view straight down my intakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Looks nice inside from that angle - who made those intake's? Looks like a fun carb setup...... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikedbeetle Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 I was most worried about this area when I started the project, but No leaks from this end. I am just going to leave the intakes on the heads since they seem to be sealed up nicely. I made the intakes with a hack-saw, dremmel tool, and drill press. I stuck them together with mig and oxy-acetyline. It is a fun carb setup. They help spin the tires just fine. I am curious to see what kind of power they add. I do know that it is a LOT faster than my brother's beetle with a completely stock ea81. I would be interested to see what a setup like this would do in a Subaru. Does anyone know an inexpensive dyno in central-to-north Utah? American fork-to-Spanish fork area more specifically. I will take it drag racing this summer, but those #'s won't help you guys a lot since my car is lighter weight. I can have a set of manifolds made for about $300. They will not look like these, but will work the same. They would be made with aluminum blocks and brass fittings. A new set of carbs is about $350-$400. I built the throttle linkage as well, but you can buy something similar. The total height on my setup is 13 inches from the top of the air cleaners to the top of the head. I don't know how much room there is under a Subaru hood. The intakes could be made an inch shorter and the air cleaner wingnuts and bolts could be changed to save another inch. to make it all 10.5-11 inches high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Looks like you do nice work. I'll try to get a measurement on the Subaru hood for you. That's probably pretty close to the stock height. I'm not in the market but there might be some people on the board here that would be. I've thought about making something similar but I lack the carbs and haven't any experience with dual-carbs of this size/style. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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