2000 Forester Woes

[howards11]

For the last several weeks since about New Years I've been having problems at idle with my 2000 Forester (76K mi). Once in a while the car shakes like it's missing when I'm waiting for the light to change. No codes are being generated. This only seems to happen after I've been driving about 1/2 hour or more. Plus the problem is intermittent.

 

Today I noticed that my radio antenna was shaking violently while waiting for a light to change and then I felt the missing like shaking through the car a few times.

 

I've tried Seafoam and some fuel injector cleaner but that doesn't help. I even tried a different brand of gas (Sunoco to Shell) and using a higher octane (87 to 89). Neither of those changes helped. I also added some gasline antifreeze. No help there either. I'm going nuts trying to come up with a solution.

 

Should I pay a visit to my local dealer?

 

Any ideas? Again there are no codes.

 

~Howard

Edited February 23, 2010 by howards11

[Mike104]

Rough idle can be plugs/wires. Oil can leak from the valve covers and soak the wires. Might just try new plugs and OEM wires as well as a fuel filter and check for vacuum leaks. Dealer may try to sell you a fuel injection system clean (pure profit maker for the dealer). Try the simple stuff first.

[uniberp]

Check that your crank pulley is not out of balance, indicating looseness and possible crankend damage occurring. They come loose occasionally.

 

For the last several weeks since about New Years I've been having problems at idle with my 2000 Forester (76K mi). Once in a while the car shakes like it's missing when I'm waiting for the light to change. No codes are being generated. This only seems to happen after I've been driving about 1/2 hour or more. Plus the problem is intermittent.

 

Today I noticed that my radio antenna was shaking violently while waiting for a light to change and then I felt the missing like shaking through the car a few times.

 

I've tried Seafoam and some fuel injector cleaner but that doesn't help. I even tried a different brand of gas (Sunoco to Shell) and using a higher octane (87 to 89). Neither of those changes helped. I also added some gasline antifreeze. No help there either. I'm going nuts trying to come up with a solution.

 

Should I pay a visit to my local dealer?

 

Any ideas? Again there are no codes.

 

~Howard

[howards11]

Update #1

 

The rough idle continues and seems to have gotten worse. Plus it backfired yesterday. No codes are being generated.

 

Another problem has cropped up:

I'm getting a thumping sound that seems to be on the left rear. It sounds like a bad tire when it happens. Could this be the wheel bearing on that side? The right rear was replaced a while back.

 

I had hoped to get it back to the local dealer sooner than this but the "wonderful" weather we have been having in Philadelphia stopped me from doing it. I'm going to set an appointment up with the dealer for early next week. Hopefully the weather will cooperate.

 

Suggestions or comments ?

 

~Howard

Edited February 23, 2010 by howards11

[naru]

Sounds a lot like a vacuum leak that develops w/temperature.

 

Could be as simple as the EGR valve sticking open(not sure if you have one)

If you do,a test would be to disable it while the car is running well by plugging the vacuum line.

 

I would check the intake plumbing as well.Spraying suspicious area w/carb cleaner while idling rough may help pinpoint the problem.

 

Could be a wonky coolant temperature sender too.I would try a drive w/it unplugged,check the resistnce,connector etc.

[howards11]

I had the Forester at the local dealer today.

 

The thumping noise was a bad left FRONT axel. That was replaced and that problem is gone.

 

The rough idle problem isn't an engine problem as I first thought. It's an AWD issue. The mechanic said it feels like someone has hit you from behind when this problem happens. The car shakes for a bit. The mechanic from the dealer said the AWD system is failing. The AT was about a quart low on fluid. They added more fluid thinking that would solve the problem. It didn't. On the ride home from the dealer and driving around tonight the problem continued. The dealership wants $1,500.00 to replace the AWD system.

 

I'm quite upset; I don't want to spend this large sum on a repair and I wasn't planning on getting another car at this time. There is only 77K on the car; almost all of it city driving here in Philadelphia.

 

Does anyone have a suggestion? Thanks in advance for your help.

 

~Howard

[nipper]

You dont say if this is a manual or automatic. if its a manual the price is about right. You have Torque bind.

 

Have you ever driven on a flat, have had mismatched tires on the car?

 

All tires should be of equal size age and wear.

[john in KY]

If an automatic, insert the fuse in the FWD holder under the hood and report back.

[johnceggleston]

The mechanic from the dealer said the AWD system is failing.

 

 

this does not make sense to me. i wish some one could explain it.

 

for auto trans, the AWD unit takes power off the rear of the trans. the place it takes power from has a mechanical hard connection to the front wheels. if the AWD take off point is not turning, the front wheels are not turning. at a stop light, how can these not turning parts cause a pulsing in the AWD system. when stopped at a stop light, the only parts of the trans that are turning are in side, before the AWD take off point.

 

what am i missing??

[howards11]

You dont say if this is a manual or automatic. if its a manual the price is about right. You have Torque bind.

 

Have you ever driven on a flat, have had mismatched tires on the car?

 

All tires should be of equal size age and wear.

 

The Forester is a automatic. All tires are the same size, age and wear. Several times in the past I have driven unknowingly on a flat. Once I did discover it I switched over to FWD using the fuse before having it repaired.

 

~Howard

[howards11]

If an automatic, insert the fuse in the FWD holder under the hood and report back.

 

I will try that and see. It was too late last night after I picked up the Forester to make the change.

 

~Howard

[nipper]

this does not make sense to me. i wish some one could explain it.

 

for auto trans, the AWD unit takes power off the rear of the trans. the place it takes power from has a mechanical hard connection to the front wheels. if the AWD take off point is not turning, the front wheels are not turning. at a stop light, how can these not turning parts cause a pulsing in the AWD system. when stopped at a stop light, the only parts of the trans that are turning are in side, before the AWD take off point.

 

what am i missing??

 

You are missing a lot actually and i am not going to explain it either. Do a search on "torque bind" here and you will find many posts that explain it.

 

Ok I will....

 

There is not mechanical "hard connection" There is a clutch pack. By definition clutch packs slip. The AWD clutch pack is made of special clutches that allow more slippage then a normal clutch pack for shifting. In addition to this there is a Dutcy C solenoid that controls the pulsing on and off of the clutch pack (that happens rain or shine). When this system fails one of two things happens. One is no AWD, the more common is the AWD sytem is locked up (torque bind).

 

The front and rear axles turn at different speeds around corners, curves etc. There has to be some slip in the AWD unit to allow for this. Yours is not slipping. When you stop the car, the clutch pack releases, and that jerk you feel is the torque being released that was in the driveline.

 

If you dont fix it eventually the car will be a hazard to drive. You can tear up axles (which you already did). You can tear up the drive shaft and diffs, you can loose contol on wet surfaces, and find it very tough to make a turn.

 

You can put the FWD fuse in under the hood untill you get it fixed. This disables the RWD but it may burn out the Duty C solenoid, as the solenoid is not designed to be always energized.

 

The dealer wants too much money for the repair, It should be around 900.00 in an auto. Shop around. You can do it yourself for much less.

[johnceggleston]

nipper,

 

thanks for the explanation, it's appreciated, as all ways. but you missed my point, i thought he complained of the car vibrating at a stop light, and the dealer claimed it was the AWD unit.

 

my point is, at a stop light sitting still there is nothing turning in the trans except? the input shaft, so the AWD unit cannot be a part of the problem since it is sitting still at the stop light. the fwd fuse in should tell a lot. probably 2 different issues.

 

earlier he mentioned "backfire" in regards to rough idle. i didn't know cars did this any more, timing belt jumped?

[nipper]

nipper,

 

thanks for the explanation, it's appreciated, as all ways. but you missed my point, i thought he complained of the car vibrating at a stop light, and the dealer claimed it was the AWD unit.

 

my point is, at a stop light sitting still there is nothing turning in the trans except? the input shaft, so the AWD unit cannot be a part of the problem since it is sitting still at the stop light. the fwd fuse in should tell a lot. probably 2 different issues.

 

earlier he mentioned "backfire" in regards to rough idle. i didn't know cars did this any more, timing belt jumped?

 

I was under the impression that it went away with the new axle, that the seized axle was causing it.

 

Maybe we need a better explination of a rough idle and a 2nd opinion.

 

I was going to say orignally a 2000 could use a tuneup by now.

[howards11]

I was under the impression that it went away with the new axle, that the seized axle was causing it.

 

Maybe we need a better explination of a rough idle and a 2nd opinion.

 

I was going to say orignally a 2000 could use a tuneup by now.

 

Let me go over what happens:

 

After driving a while...sometimes about 1/2 hr, when you stop the car shakes like the timing is off. Sometimes it does it once and other times it continues to do it. This shaking can be very slight or forceful. Once in a while the car will backfire when I start up after stopping.

 

The mechanic at the dealer did not have a problem initially but after driving it as I suggested did feel the problem. He described it as being hit by something in the rear. The ATF was down a quart (I don't understand this at all) and the dealer felt that by adding fluid it may clear the problem. It doesn't. They want $1,500 to replace the AWD unit and at this point in time I don't want to spend any more on this auto as it's becoming a bottomless pit.

 

~Howard

[nipper]

Lets take it one step at a time, since if you do have Torque bind, we can't do much about it now.

 

The engine.

 

When was the last time it had a full tuneup?

How many miles on this car?

Have you had the air filter replaced recently?

When was the last time the timing belt was changed?

 

You cant diagnose transmissions issues properly untill you get the engine running properly.

 

 

nipper

[howards11]

Lets take it one step at a time, since if you do have Torque bind, we can't do much about it now.

 

The engine.

 

When was the last time it had a full tuneup?

How many miles on this car?

Have you had the air filter replaced recently?

When was the last time the timing belt was changed?

 

You cant diagnose transmissions issues properly untill you get the engine running properly.

 

 

nipper

 

 

NIPPER:

 

When was the last time it had a full tuneup?

About 1 1/2 yrs

 

How many miles on this car?

77K

 

Have you had the air filter replaced recently?

Spring 2009

 

When was the last time the timing belt was changed?

60K

~Howard

[nipper]

What is your location PHL doesnt say much.

[howards11]

What is your location PHL doesnt say much.

 

I'm in Philadelphia, PA. In the Northeast section of the city.

 

~Howard

[nipper]

OK that helps.

 

When you got the tune-up, what plugs and wires did you use?

Do you have a CEL on?

Why was the timing belt changed so early, when it is required at 106,000 miles.

 

Why didnt the dealer notice the rough running? I dont trust this dealer.

[howards11]

OK that helps.

 

When you got the tune-up, what plugs and wires did you use?

Do you have a CEL on?

Why was the timing belt changed so early, when it is required at 106,000 miles.

 

Why didnt the dealer notice the rough running? I dont trust this dealer.

 

 

NIPPER:

When you got the tune-up, what plugs and wires did you use?

I believe my mechanic used NGK plugs. The wires he purchased from the same Subaru dealer.

 

Do you have a CEL on?

No CEL.

 

Why was the timing belt changed so early, when it is required at 106,000 miles.

I had my mechanic change all the belts as a precaution. I did not purchase this car new. I got it used, 3 yrs old with 25K. I wanted to make sure I did not have problems.

 

Why didnt the dealer notice the rough running? I dont trust this dealer.

They told me the mechanic did not let it run enough for the problem to occur. On a second attempt, he did feel the problem.

 

I don't trust this dealer either but I have used them in the past when my general mechanic could not come up with a solution. My mechanic gets his Subaru parts from them. I have PM'd you with the name of the dealer. They are not in Philadelphia but in Bucks County, PA.

 

~Howard

Edited February 23, 2010 by howards11

[nipper]

Hell I can get parts from the worst dealer on Long Island (who is only 4 miles from my house) doesnt mean i trust him.

 

Chainging the belt was premature, but thats water under the bridge.

 

Find another shop before they really screw up your wallet. The rough running can be as simple as a vacume leak.

 

 

How long has the car been doing this?

[howards11]

Hell I can get parts from the worst dealer on Long Island (who is only 4 miles from my house) doesnt mean i trust him.

 

Chainging the belt was premature, but thats water under the bridge.

 

Find another shop before they really screw up your wallet. The rough running can be as simple as a vacume leak.

 

 

How long has the car been doing this?

 

NIPPER:

 

This has been going on since around December. It has gotten progressively worse.

 

Do you know of anyone down here in Philly ? Should I take it to another Subaru dealer or go to my general mechanic ?

 

The last time I had a weird problem with this vehicle my general mechanic just threw up his hand and said "I don't know. Take it to a Subaru dealer."

 

One last question: Should I switch it over to FWD and see what happens ?

 

Thanks for your help !!

 

~Howard

[nipper]

NIPPER:

 

This has been going on since around December. It has gotten progressively worse.

 

Do you know of anyone down here in Philly ? Should I take it to another Subaru dealer or go to my general mechanic ?

 

The last time I had a weird problem with this vehicle my general mechanic just threw up his hand and said "I don't know. Take it to a Subaru dealer."

 

One last question: Should I switch it over to FWD and see what happens ?

 

Thanks for your help !!

 

~Howard

 

Find another mechanic, sounds like neither one is very good.

 

Look at www.cartalk.com in the mechanics files and see if they have one listed near you.

 

I am not convinced you have Torque Bind.

[johnceggleston]

 

I am not convinced you have Torque Bind.

 

i'm not either, but running with the fuse in for a day or two is no big deal and if it does not change any thing you have less to worry about. if something does change with the car then you have more info to work with.