99 Legacy Outback Limited

[hiropro42]

Ok, bear with me; this is my first thread here (and my first post, to boot), so if it's in the wrong spot, all apologies.

 

My brother recently offered me dibs on his 99 Legacy Outback Limited. It's got 217,000 miles on the odometer, which threw me a little, initially. It's never been in an accident and all the scheduled maintenance has been done on time. I've had several friends check it out, and all have said it's in pretty awesome shape considering the mileage. It's lived in Wisconsin, Illinois and Maine all of its life, but it's been washed regularly, so there's nothing but surface rust on the frame.

 

The list of things that are either broken or worn out is pretty short: the slave cylinder for the clutch is about on it's last leg, it needs new rear struts, a pair of new rear brake rotors, and a patch for a hole in the exhaust system, and there's also an extremely slow oil leak somewhere on top of the engine, like in the valve cover gasket or intake manifold area. Beyond that, everything is mainly cosmetic. The passenger rearview mirror was taken off by some butt-pipe in Chicago traffic at one point, and that's never been replaced. The speedometer cable has intermittent issues, so sometimes the speedo doesn't work, but no biggie. The radio antenna motor is fried. The remote entry/doorlock/alarm sensor doesn't work either. The retractable cargo cover was pretty much eaten by his dog, but I could care less about that.

 

The transmission was replaced about 40,000 miles ago, along with the clutch at about the same time. One of my friends asked if he'd been keeping an eye on the timing belt and the water pump, but I didn't know, and he hasn't gotten back to me since yesterday (though I'm sure that if there had been a problem, it would have been taken care of, unless he didn't know about it yet). The fluid in both the front and rear differentials is clean and free of shavings, as is the oil, the transmission fluid and the clutch fluid.

 

Like I said, it just rolled over the 217,000 mile mark, it came with pretty much the full package of options (including premium audio), and it even has a ball hitch (not that I'll be towing anything regularly, but it may come in handy). The blue book value for it in fair shape is just shy of $4,000, and his initial thought was $2,500, though I would expect him to up that to $3,000 or so.

 

Can anyone think of anything else I should have looked at before I plunk my cash down on the table? Is this a good price? Anything to be wary of at this mileage? It's extremely comfortable, drives very nicely, gets decent mileage (anywhere from 23/24 to about 30, depending on how much fun you want to have with it), and I am completely in love with it, having never owned a Subaru before.

[Rooster2]

Welcome to this forum. A lot of good knowledgeable Subie people are here and very willing to help answer your questions.

 

In my opinion, what is critical on the 99 OBW is to know if, and when, the head gaskets were replaced. With 200K+ on the odo, I am sure that the hg have been replaced on the car. If not, then you have to know that the motor is a sure bet candidate for hg replacement in the amount of about $1,500. The head gasket is a common major issue that ultimately affects all Subarus, with the 2.5 motor, and that includes the 99 you are looking at.

 

Ask when the timing belt, tension-er pully, have been replaced. This is important, because should the timing belt break, then the intake and exhaust valves clash with the pistons to cause some serious damage.

 

$3-4,000 seems a bit high for the age and mileage on this car. My guess, is that $2-2,500 is more realistic, and that is with the knowledge that the head gaskets, and timing belt were replaced within the past couple of years. You may even want to offer less because of the clutch issue, exhaust issue, and brakes for the rear.

 

Check to "torque bind," related to all wheel drive. Read about this phenomena in the search area on this forum.

[nipper]

At 217,000 miles it doesnt matter if the HG was replaced or not, as at that mileage it can just let go due to age. So put some money aside for that. Timing belt is NOT something you wait for it to be a problem, as if it gets to that point, there can be major engine damage. If you get a deal, job #1 (even before you drive it anywhere) is to replace the timing belt and all associated goodies.

 

At about 212,000 miles the timing belt and all the other goodies should have been changed.

 

None of the faults listed are surprising with a car with this kind of mileage, and none are a deal breaker.

 

Who would do all the work on the car? That is important. At the very least he should sell it to you at what he paid for it

[hiropro42]

Welcome to this forum. A lot of good knowledgeable Subie people are here and very willing to help answer your questions.

 

In my opinion, what is critical on the 99 OBW is to know if, and when, the head gaskets were replaced. With 200K+ on the odo, I am sure that the hg have been replaced on the car. If not, then you have to know that the motor is a sure bet candidate for hg replacement in the amount of about $1,500. The head gasket is a common major issue that ultimately affects all Subarus, with the 2.5 motor, and that includes the 99 you are looking at.

 

Ask when the timing belt, tension-er pully, have been replaced. This is important, because should the timing belt break, then the intake and exhaust valves clash with the pistons to cause some serious damage.

 

$3-4,000 seems a bit high for the age and mileage on this car. My guess, is that $2-2,500 is more realistic, and that is with the knowledge that the head gaskets, and timing belt were replaced within the past couple of years. You may even want to offer less because of the clutch issue, exhaust issue, and brakes for the rear.

 

Check to "torque bind," related to all wheel drive. Read about this phenomena in the search area on this forum.

 

Thanks! Considering the board's name, I figured this would be the place to be asking about this car.

 

1st bolded: I know that he's had the head gaskets replaced; somewhere around 130,000/140,000, I think. He was hoping that would stop the oil leak, but it didn't. It's not excessive, but it does leak onto the top of the block, so it makes things a little smelly after it gets up to temp.

 

2nd bolded: I asked about the timing belt and the water pump, but I haven't heard from him yet today. I'll ask about the tensioner.

 

I'll be sure to ask about torque bind as well. Thanks for the suggestion. He took really good care of the car for the most part, to the point of perma-parking it due to a transmission issue until he could pay for it (rather than continuing to drive it and crossing his fingers, as some drivers do). I know he had the tie rods and CV joints replaced in the front at some point, but I'm not sure how long ago that was.

 

Thanks again.

[hiropro42]

At 217,000 miles it doesnt matter if the HG was replaced or not, as at that mileage it can just let go due to age. So put some money aside for that. Timing belt is NOT something you wait for it to be a problem, as if it gets to that point, there can be major engine damage. If you get a deal, job #1 (even before you drive it anywhere) is to replace the timing belt and all associated goodies.

 

At about 212,000 miles the timing belt and all the other goodies should have been changed.

 

None of the faults listed are surprising with a car with this kind of mileage, and none are a deal breaker.

 

Who would do all the work on the car? That is important. At the very least he should sell it to you at what he paid for it

 

The work would be done by a combination of two people, both of whom have owned and worked on Subarus before. One is my wife's cousin, who is a pretty accomplished mechanic with a very good mentality when it comes to problem solving. The other is a good friend of mine and longtime Subaru enthusiast who went to school for automotive mechanics and is currently a parts department manager for a local dealership. Beyond that, there's the garage that my brother has used for the past 5 or 6 years; they're already familiar with the car and have a great ethic when it comes to customer relations.

[nipper]

The work would be done by a combination of two people, both of whom have owned and worked on Subarus before. One is my wife's cousin, who is a pretty accomplished mechanic with a very good mentality when it comes to problem solving. The other is a good friend of mine and longtime Subaru enthusiast who went to school for automotive mechanics and is currently a parts department manager for a local dealership. Beyond that, there's the garage that my brother has used for the past 5 or 6 years; they're already familiar with the car and have a great ethic when it comes to customer relations.

 

The reason i ask is because that would weigh in on the finale price. Doing it yourself (or free help) is one thing, having to pay someone is something else.

 

 

nipper

Edited February 21, 2010 by nipper

[hiropro42]

The reason i ask is because that would weigh in on the finale price. Doing it yourself (or free help) is one thing, having to pay someone is something else.

 

 

nipper

 

I totally understand. Free help is pretty close, when you consider that my wife is going to be designing some of her cousin's body work for trade. She already made him a template for the grille on the '72 Chevy something-or-other truck he's restoring (you can tell I'm a real knowledgeable Chevy guy, huh? ). That plus a case of beer and/or some other, uh, organic compensation is pretty much all I'll be out, after the cost of parts.

 

I actually just talked to him, and the final price is going to be $2,250. He said that the timing belt, water pump, and tensioner arm/pulley were replaced around 145,000 miles. I don't know how that figures into the 212,000 figure, but there it is. He also recommended that when I go to the salvage yard, I should look for steel rims, since they hold the bead better than aluminum rims, which he's had problems with.

[nipper]

That plus a case of beer and/or some other, uh, organic compensation is pretty much all I'll be out, after the cost of parts.

 

I actually just talked to him, and the final price is going to be $2,250. He said that the timing belt, water pump, and tensioner arm/pulley were replaced around 145,000 miles. I don't know how that figures into the 212,000 figure, but there it is. He also recommended that when I go to the salvage yard, I should look for steel rims, since they hold the bead better than aluminum rims, which he's had problems with.

 

 

Nothing like Home grown Oregeno

 

TB is every 106,000 miles or 106 months. So unless the oil leak is coming from that area, your good untill 250,000 miles (easy to remember as opposed to 251).

 

Replace the PCV valve, that may slow down the oil leak. The wheels sound more like they are pourus. Subarus need to have all four tires match in size/brand/wear.

 

The price is much more reasonable now.

[hiropro42]

Nothing like Home grown Oregeno

 

Agreed. :cool:

 

TB is every 106,000 miles or 106 months. So unless the oil leak is coming from that area, your good untill 250,000 miles (easy to remember as opposed to 251).

 

Since I haven't had my head under the hood very much, I'm not sure. I don't know exactly where the leak itself is, but it collects on the top of the block, near the front, on the left hand side, just underneath where the intake tube meets the manifold.

 

Replace the PCV valve, that may slow down the oil leak.

 

Don't know what a PCV valve is, but I'll ask about it.

 

The wheels sound more like they are pourus. Subarus need to have all four tires match in size/brand/wear.

 

The tires are pretty new; less than 5,000 miles. They all match. The rims are original to the car, and yeah, they're porous. After a while, the bead lets go a little bit, and they start a slow-leak process that lasts until the tires either get remounted or replaced. From what I understand, steel rims don't have this problem.

 

The price is much more reasonable now.

 

Agreed. I dropped $2k as a starting offer, and he said $2,500, so we split the difference. He's happy, I'm happy. Should be mine completely in about two weeks (once my refund check shows up in the mail).

[Rooster2]

The tires are pretty new; less than 5,000 miles. They all match. The rims are original to the car, and yeah, they're porous. After a while, the bead lets go a little bit, and they start a slow-leak process that lasts until the tires either get remounted or replaced. From what I understand, steel rims don't have this problem.

 

My response to above quote:

 

 

I have both a 98 and a 99 Oubacks with alloys. Yes, I get tire air leaks that I attribute to the wheels. Not so much that the alloys have porous metal, but I think it is more likely that corrosion (aluminum oxide) builds up at the tire bead, and that corrosion material causes small air leaks. In the past, I have gone to a tire shop, had the shop dismount the tire, grind around the rim bead area with a wire brush on the end of a power drill. Then have the tire remounted. That has fixed the problem.

 

My own recent solution, has been to add about 1/4 to 1/3 can of the fix a flat to a tire that I have reduced the air pressure to about 15 to 20 pounds, then reinflate the tire, and drive on it immediately a mile or so. The immediate driving is necessary to fling the fix a flat to coat the inside of the tire and tire bead. Not driving the car immediately, may cause the fix a flat to puddle permanently in one spot on the inside of the tire, and that is not good. So far this has sealed up every leak, and with the minimal amount of fix a flat added to the tire, the wheel remains balanced. The above advise is prolly not going to sit well with a good many people, who don't like fix a flat to begin with, but like I say, this solution has worked for me.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Rooster2
added info

[hiropro42]

I have both a 98 and a 99 Oubacks with alloys. Yes, I get tire air leaks that I attribute to the wheels. Not so much that the alloys have porous metal, but I think it is more likely that corrosion (aluminum oxide) builds up at the tire bead, and that corrosion material causes small air leaks. In the past, I have gone to a tire shop, had the shop dismount the tire, grind around the rim bead area with a wire brush on the end of a power drill. Then have the tire remounted. That has fixed the problem.

 

My own recent solution, has been to add about 1/4 to 1/3 can of the fix a flat to a tire that I have reduced the air pressure to about 15 to 20 pounds, then reinflate the tire, and drive on it immediately a mile or so. The immediate driving is necessary to fling the fix a flat to coat the inside of the tire and tire bead. Not driving the car immediately, may cause the fix a flat to puddle permanently in one spot on the inside of the tire, and that is not good. So far this has sealed up every leak, and with the minimal amount of fix a flat added to the tire, the wheel remains balanced. The above advise is prolly not going to sit well with a good many people, who don't like fix a flat to begin with, but like I say, this solution has worked for me.

 

I know my brother has done the fix-a-flat thing a time or two, but not as anything permanent. He also recommended what you said: take the car to a garage and just have them reapply the bead. I totally agree with you about the cause: it's not so much the porous nature of the metal itself, but the likely reaction between corroded aluminum and the bead.

 

All that said, I still think i'm going to be looking for steel rims when I finally head to the salvage yard for the rest of my parts list, which so far is pretty sparse:

 

Passenger side rearview mirror

Retracting cargo area cover

Steel rims

Power radio antenna motor

1999 model year manual (he's got a 2000 manual with the car, and it doesn't include the radio that's in there, so that sucks)

 

Really, that's pretty much it.

[johnceggleston]

but I think it is more likely that corrosion (aluminum oxide) builds up at the tire bead, and that corrosion material causes small air leaks. In the past, I have gone to a tire shop, had the shop dismount the tire, grind around the rim bead area with a wire brush on the end of a power drill. Then have the tire remounted. That has fixed the problem.

 

 

the tire shop i went to spray painted the inside of the rim at the bead in an attempt to slow the return of the corrosion. this is easier to do, grinding and painting, with the wheel mounted on the spin balancer or something similar.

[logic23]

Your oil leak is probably the power steering pump...

[hiropro42]

the tire shop i went to spray painted the inside of the rim at the bead in an attempt to slow the return of the corrosion. this is easier to do, grinding and painting, with the wheel mounted on the spin balancer or something similar.

 

I actually had the same exact thought. There are other spray-on sealants that could be used, but I have a little more research to do before I figure out which ones a.) bond to aluminum, b.) allow the bead to adhere to their cured surface and c.) are not corrosive to the rubber of the tire itself.

 

Your oil leak is probably the power steering pump...

 

Thanks, I'll be sure to check that out.

 

Also, as a first time Subaru owner, I found it hard to believe that it's actually necessary to replace all four tires simultaneously. Is this true? Really? Unless there's no center differential, the drivetrain should be able to accommodate the cumulative play that results from slight differences in tire wear over time. I can't imagine that a company like Subaru, which has more or less pioneered the evolution of full time AWD over the past 35 years, would deliberately exclude something that could solve such an issue. If this is true, can someone please explain to me why Subaru owners have to do this and, say, someone with any other full time AWD vehicle does not?

[mikec03]

I just checked out the car on edmonds.com which I think is a lot more accurate then Kelly. There is a $1300 deduct for the high milage for a net value of $1500, basis average condition.

[hiropro42]

I just checked out the car on edmonds.com which I think is a lot more accurate then Kelly. There is a $1300 deduct for the high milage for a net value of $1500, basis average condition.

 

Meh. Considering the options on the car and the fact that pretty much everything works and has been taken care of, I'm ok with the price I paid (yesterday--I now officially own my first Soobie! WOOHOO!! And none too soon; we had a couple inches of fresh powder dumped on us last night). Besides, if I'm going to slightly overpay, I'd rather my money went to my brother than a dealer. At least then I can hit him up for it down the road without feeling any guilt at all.

 

Thanks for the tip, though. I hadn't heard of edmonds.com before. I'll be sure to check them out next time.

[nipper]

Blue books are just a guide that dealers use to rip you off on a trade in, and insurance companies use to screw you in case of an accident.

 

Retail market is the only thing that really bares any weight in real life. A subaru outback is going to be a lot cheaper in FL then it would be in CO.

 

If you are happy then that is all that counts.

 

 

nipper

[hiropro42]

Blue books are just a guide that dealers use to rip you off on a trade in, and insurance companies use to screw you in case of an accident.

 

Kind of like the guides that insurance companies use to tell people how much monetary value their (or their relatives') lives have. Yeah, I know.

 

Retail market is the only thing that really bares any weight in real life. A subaru outback is going to be a lot cheaper in FL then it would be in CO.

 

Or Wisconsin...

 

If you are happy then that is all that counts.

 

Totally.

 

Got the replacement slave cylinder today, and I'll be picking up the struts tomorrow. After that, it's off to the local Subaru Heaven to plunder and pillage for what's left...