Seattle area rec for head replacement?

[franklinstower]

My coworker just had a head failure in her 2003 forester with 102k miles. She dropped it off at SMART subaru service and they performed a leak down which showed a 100% leak in cylinder 2. The mechanic said the valve guide slipped and is preventing the valve from closing causing the problem. How he could tell that from a leak down test, I don't know. Anyway, they want to charge her about $3200 to replace the head with a new one, do both head gaskets, and the timing belt and idlers etc.

I would do this for her, but a) don't have time, and my wife would be suspicious of me doing this favor for this incredible hot co-worker. So any recomendations for a seattle are shop or any one locally want to do this as a side job?

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

[Ever Victorious]

I know a shop in Everett that will do work with any parts you give them, within reason. Although I've never asked them to put on a used head, they did do a used intake manifold on another vehicle for me. They will not warranty the parts, only the labor. If you can pull/find a decent head, I can give you their info.

[bstone]

generaldisorder

[Turbone]

generaldisorder

 

He's not in the Seattle area.

 

Try AWD Auto in Kirkland, most of their work is on Subaru's.

425 828-3600, ask for Ryan or Ken.

[franklinstower]

Another question: are valve guides dropping or slipping a common problem on the SOHC engines? Why would the shop want to pull the engine to replace the head. Can't that be done with the engine in? Also they are recommending six star head gaskets, I am unfamilar with those. any thoughts on those? I asked the tech if he was going to use a cometic gasket and he looked at me with puzzlement?

 

So basically, I just don't want her to get ripped off. $3200 seems high to install head gaskets, timing belt service and possibly replace one head. Also I don't understand why they don't just have the existing head rebuilt with new guides and lap the valves. Does this model have HLA's or roller rocker? Could that have caused the problem with the leak down results?

 

sorry for ignorant questions, I am a ph1 ej22 guy.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

[Caboobaroo]

I work for All Wheel Drive Auto and do these headgaskets all the time as I'm one of the techs.

 

The valve guides don't usually drop but I have seen it every once in awhile and sometimes they can be fixed but other times the head has to be replaced. A leakdown test will show you if a cylinder has a leak obviously but if a valve guide has dropped to the point of holding the valve open, then the leakdown test will show 100% leakdown. Now did they go in with a scope and see if the guide had dropped?

 

Yes, pulling the engine makes the job MUCH easier then trying to do it in the car. Don't know about you but I'd rather have more room outside of the car then be restricted to working on it inside the car.

 

The Six Star heagaskets are a multilayer steel headgasket which holds up much better then the OEM single layer coated gaskets. The coating is what fails on the gaskets to cause them to leak. They are actually one of the best headgaskets to use on these engines. I've only seen them fail twice because of major overheating due to operator error (blown radiator and customer keeps driving).

 

Another question: are valve guides dropping or slipping a common problem on the SOHC engines? Why would the shop want to pull the engine to replace the head. Can't that be done with the engine in? Also they are recommending six star head gaskets, I am unfamilar with those. any thoughts on those? I asked the tech if he was going to use a cometic gasket and he looked at me with puzzlement?

 

So basically, I just don't want her to get ripped off. $3200 seems high to install head gaskets, timing belt service and possibly replace one head. Also I don't understand why they don't just have the existing head rebuilt with new guides and lap the valves. Does this model have HLA's or roller rocker? Could that have caused the problem with the leak down results?

 

sorry for ignorant questions, I am a ph1 ej22 guy.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul

Edited November 10, 2011 by Caboobaroo

[renob123]

That seems pretty high. You could probably save your coworker a lot of money by dragging the car to GeneralDisorder in Portland and having him do the work. You can PM edrach on the board here as well. He has a decent mechanic in the area.

 

Both SMART and AWD are pretty respectable shops in the area, though.

 

Jacob

[franklinstower]

I work for All Wheel Drive Auto and do these headgaskets all the time as I'm one of the techs.

 

The valve guides don't usually drop but I have seen it every once in awhile and sometimes they can be fixed but other times the head has to be replaced. A leakdown test will show you if a cylinder has a leak obviously but if a valve guide has dropped to the point of holding the valve open, then the leakdown test will show 100% leakdown. Now did they go in with a scope and see if the guide had dropped?

 

Yes, pulling the engine makes the job MUCH easier then trying to do it in the car. Don't know about you but I'd rather have more room outside of the car then be restricted to working on it inside the car.

 

The Six Star heagaskets are a multilayer steel headgasket which holds up much better then the OEM single layer coated gaskets. The coating is what fails on the gaskets to cause them to leak. They are actually one of the best headgaskets to use on these engines. I've only seen them fail twice because of major overheating due to operator error (blown radiator and customer keeps driving).

 

I just got a hold of the estimate, 100% leak down in #4, visual inspection after dropping the exhaust confirms that a guide has slipped preventing a valve from closing, I assume one valve and probably an exhaust? it didn't say on the report.

 

Anyway, total parts and labor for the job was $4k OUch! Didn't include new water pump or idlers on the T-belt job. Personally I think those should be replaced at the time of the service just as a course of preventive maintenance. Thoughts?

[GeneralDisorder]

That's insane - she should bring it to me here in Portland. I could do it for probably 1/3 of that price including all new timing components, both head gaskets, valve job, etc. I just did an '06 Forester HG job for about $1300. And that included the clutch. :-p.

 

PM me if she's interested.

 

GD

Edited November 10, 2011 by GeneralDisorder

[renob123]

I guess it depends on when the last t-belt service was. If it was just done a few thousand miles ago, then a new water pump, etc would be a waste of money, IMHO. If it was a long time ago, then yes, it would be prudent to do the whole thing while they're in there.

 

$4k and no t-belt service is too much, and I think most people here would agree. If she's going to spend that much money, you should think about getting a board member to do it. GD, Caboobaru, or otherwise. Jeesh. That's at least a month's pay for a lot of people here.

 

Jacob

[franklinstower]

I guess it depends on when the last t-belt service was. If it was just done a few thousand miles ago, then a new water pump, etc would be a waste of money, IMHO. If it was a long time ago, then yes, it would be prudent to do the whole thing while they're in there.

 

$4k and no t-belt service is too much, and I think most people here would agree. If she's going to spend that much money, you should think about getting a board member to do it. GD, Caboobaru, or otherwise. Jeesh. That's at least a month's pay for a lot of people here.

 

Jacob

 

no the job included the T-Belt service, just not replacing the water pump and idlers, only inspecting them. She was due for the Timing belt job anyway. she has 103k on it and was planning on doing it after christmas. I am consulting her about getting it to portland right now.

[Caboobaroo]

I also forgot to add that we do offer free loaner cars and our turn around time is about 2 days.

[GeneralDisorder]

If getting it to Portland is an issue for her I can pick it up - I have a trailer and a van that gets about 16 mpg. It would be about $80 plus gas to pull it down here. Probably cheaper than a tow though.

 

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

I was curious about that super high price tag that she got from Smart Service so I did a little thinking and then some googleing (googling? :-p) concerning the cost of living between PDX and Seattle.... I was horrified to learn that a good rule of thumb is that Seattle is about 25% more expensive .

 

Check out this page:

 

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Seattle%2C+WA&country2=United+States&city2=Portland%2C+OR

 

So there's $1000 accounted for - or thereabouts. I could see a shop down here quoteing somewhere around $2500 to $2800 considering the machine work or replacement head. I'm independant and my labor rate is about half or less what the shops *here* charge so I generally come in around $1200 for a simple HG job with parts and labor that other shops charge $2000 to $2500 for. Thus at the end of the day I am 1/3 or less the price of a Seattle shop that's on the high/normal end of the spectrum for that area.

 

Just goes to show - deals can be found if you are willing to do the leg-work or travel a few hours. Which is not a huge inconvienence to save several thousand $$$. :-p

 

GD

Edited November 10, 2011 by GeneralDisorder

[renob123]

I was curious about that super high price tag that she got from Smart Service so I did a little thinking and then some googleing (googling? :-p) concerning the cost of living between PDX and Seattle.... I was horrified to learn that a good rule of thumb is that Seattle is about 25% more expensive .

 

Check out this page:

 

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Seattle%2C+WA&country2=United+States&city2=Portland%2C+OR

 

So there's $1000 accounted for - or thereabouts. I could see a shop down here quoteing somewhere around $2500 to $2800 considering the machine work or replacement head. I'm independant and my labor rate is about half or less what the shops *here* charge so I generally come in around $1200 for a simple HG job with parts and labor that other shops charge $2000 to $2500 for. Thus at the end of the day I am 1/3 or less the price of a Seattle shop that's on the high/normal end of the spectrum for that area.

 

Just goes to show - deals can be found if you are willing to do the leg-work or travel a few hours. Which is not a huge inconvienence to save several thousand $$$. :-p

 

GD

 

Yeah, but Seattle has a real football team. It cracks me up to see Oregonians going totally rabid over these pee-wee college teams:lol:

 

Jacob

[franklinstower]

I also forgot to add that we do offer free loaner cars and our turn around time is about 2 days.

 

Its on its way to you Russ. Thanks for the help. Of course Smart service was all over it as soon as she showed up with the tow truck. I feel you get one chance to provide a suitable offer, no do-overs in this case....I don't know if it was just because she is a girl, or not. But the reality is All Wheel Drive specialists were doing a lot more including the t-stat, idlers, water pump and two reman'd heads for a lot less.

 

Thanks GD for the offer. I was pushing for you to do it, just because I know she doesn't have a bunch of cash, (and a non-mechanical hubby). I could have made it easy too since our friend drives to the 'Couv every monday for work.

 

Now on to my project - A freind just gave me a EJ25D long block - I already have a '92 EJ22 in my Vanagon - so its now frankenmotor time! I want to keep the compression as low as possible like between 10:1 and 10.5:1 is that possible with that combo? EJ25D block and '92 EJ22 dp heads.

Edited November 11, 2011 by franklinstower

[renob123]

Its one its way to you Russ. Thanks for the help. Of course Smart service was all over it as soon as she showed up with the tow truck. I feel you get one chance to provide a suitable offer, no do-overs in this case....I don't know if it was just because she is a girl, or not. But the reality is All Wheel Drive specialists were doing a lot more including the t-stat, idlers, water pump and two reman'd heads for a lot less.

 

Thanks GD for the offer. I was pushing for you to do it, just because I know she doesn't have a bunch of cash, (and a non-mechanical hubby). I could have made it easy too since our friend drives to the 'Couv every monday for work.

 

Now on to my project - A freind just gave me a EJ25D long block - I already have a '92 EJ22 in my Vanagon - so its now frankenmotor time! I want to keep the compression as low as possible like between 10:1 and 10.5:1 is that possible with that combo? EJ25D block and '92 EJ22 dp heads.

 

For that compression, you'd probably need a custom thicker head gasket. Cometic can make them for you. Of course, your timing will be off a little bit. Keep in mind that if you run Delta torque cams, they'll reduce your dynamic compression slightly, which gives you a better margin of safety.

 

Jacob

[GeneralDisorder]

I'm glad she's going to be getting it fixed for a better price - as long as she's happy with the price then I'm sure Russ/AWD Auto will do a quality job for her.

 

 

GD

[edrach]

I use an independent mechanic in Snohomish. He's 25+ years experienced on Subarus (was with University Subaru until the dealer dropped Subaru). He started his own business a few years ago and he is excellent as well as reasonably priced. Two years ago he did a complete rebuild on my Impreza (rings, heads, valves, re-seal and all the timing belt components) for $1700. I've put 60K miles on the car since then and everything is still running strong at 220K miles on the car. Drop me a PM and I can give you his phone number. Shop name is At Your Service Autocare.

[edrach]

I was curious about that super high price tag that she got from Smart Service so I did a little thinking and then some googleing (googling? :-p) concerning the cost of living between PDX and Seattle.... I was horrified to learn that a good rule of thumb is that Seattle is about 25% more expensive .

 

Check out this page:

 

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=Seattle%2C+WA&country2=United+States&city2=Portland%2C+OR

 

So there's $1000 accounted for - or thereabouts. I could see a shop down here quoteing somewhere around $2500 to $2800 considering the machine work or replacement head. I'm independant and my labor rate is about half or less what the shops *here* charge so I generally come in around $1200 for a simple HG job with parts and labor that other shops charge $2000 to $2500 for. Thus at the end of the day I am 1/3 or less the price of a Seattle shop that's on the high/normal end of the spectrum for that area.

 

Just goes to show - deals can be found if you are willing to do the leg-work or travel a few hours. Which is not a huge inconvienence to save several thousand $$$. :-p

 

GD

Just to add some perspective here. Smart Service is an excellent shop but the reality is they are close to dealer costs on many service issues. Many times "you get what you pay for." I've dealt with them in the past and they have always been above board, do excellent work, and back up their work. I don't go there anymore ONLY because I've found a less expensive alternative that serves my needs very well for the work I can't do for myself. They would be my choice if cost was not a consideration and I would certainly use Smart rather than ANY dealer regardless of cost.

 

There are many good independent Subaru shops in the Seattle area and AWD is one of them. Search around and you'll find a shop to suit your needs and your pocketbook here on the USMB. You'll also find which shops to avoid like the plague. Ask for a reference about a given shop and I'm sure there are many here on the USMB that can give you feedback.

Edited November 11, 2011 by edrach

[Caboobaroo]

And it looks like next week is going to be CRAZY busy for us....

 

Me alone am doing this Forester, another Forester that needs a new engine (customer ran it dry of oil 3 years after we put an engine in it), another set of headgaskets and a whole lotta work on an SVX...

 

Better bring my dancin shoes on Monday:D

[Caboobaroo]

All righty. Got this car finished up Tuesday of this week but its been super busy so I haven't been able to post up my finding with a pic.

 

So the driver side head had two dropped valve guides, one was dropped to the point of keeping one exhaust valve open for the 100% leakdown. Here's a pic of how far the valve actually was sticking out...

 

 

Had another Forester come in Thursday with a a rough running engine and a check engine light for a #4 cylinder misfire. I checked the sparkplug, swapped the fuel injectors on #2 and #4 and it was still there. Did a compression test and it read 50psi. Did a leakdown and it was at 100% with the air coming from the exhaust tip.

[ShawnW]

I had that last week and could see it with bore o scope. Handy tool that I often go to before compression/leak tester because I can email a photo with it to the customer and don't have to mess with injectors. All the same great diagnosis and photo.

 

Im laughing all the way to the bank on these shops that threw away or sold their valve grinders and head service tools. These jobs pay well and aren't that hard. Just labor intensive which is good money for my shop.

[Caboobaroo]

I had that last week and could see it with bore o scope. Handy tool that I often go to before compression/leak tester because I can email a photo with it to the customer and don't have to mess with injectors. All the same great diagnosis and photo.

 

Im laughing all the way to the bank on these shops that threw away or sold their valve grinders and head service tools. These jobs pay well and aren't that hard. Just labor intensive which is good money for my shop.

 

I got a great machinist that we have do all of our work. We usually have 1 - 2 pairs of remand heads in stock which can make it easy for me being a tech.