Benny Poo Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 Thanks for sharing all your experience and advice. Some of it is reassuring. Some of it scares me. It'll be a tough decision. If I go for it, it sounds like I should shell out for the best possible condition, though availability is pretty slim. Seems I should also stick with Gen. 2. I like them both, so it's nice to know that one has obvious advantages. I really appreciate all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indrid cold Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) Sounds like they have covered most everything. You have to get over the idea that you can't work on these cars. It is very doable, very learnable but it takes time. One thing I have always voiced is anything new you are in the learning curve, which means it will probably cost you more, take longer and seems difficult at first, but as things break, it is nothing more then an opportunity to learn. You learn how to diagnose, fix and when everything is running well, you get to enjoy the ride. The worst thing I have seen is when a new owner tries to modify or work on and have little or no experience and they have to take them to a shop, they push themselves to far, to fast. If something happens, one should be able to say, I should work on that this weekend, if its warm out and the wind isn't blowing, and I feel like it. When there is no pressure you can read, take time to look it over, not make a mistake at 1 am trying to get it back on the road and next morning a bolt flies off from somewhere under the car and you go... what did I forget to tighten? I have been there and done that! So it sounds like you have the opportunity to do it more as a hobby and have a love for the Brat. I love getting the stares from people as I drive by with the little sun-roof winglets opened. Good times. One last thought. You can find a well loved wagon for a fraction of the price to learn on. Probably not what you have in mind but I have seen others buy a wagon, whack off the roof behind the A-pillars and open up the back to the sky. It's radical, it's over the edge and more importantly it's CHEAP! The more you pay for no dents, gone through cars it costs you more. Try not to think that these have to be nice cars to be runners. Some of the ugliest older beat up roos were the funest and dependable cars. Mainly because the owners knew every inch on their roo and how to fix it. So why buy pretty and shinny when you can pick up a rougher looking car for CHEAP. I like CHEAP. gives me more money to buy tools and parts to fix. an idea of cheap is less then $500, more like $150 (NO automatic transmissions please or Turbo'd motors) my last 84 hatchback cost me $100 and drove it for 5 years. My 88 wagon, $160. drove it for 3 years, etc.. etc... of course I had to bond with them at first, show them some love, parts, and stuff, but they gave me years of service after. Excellent. I love my Brat, Brats are fun and if your heart is set on it, keep looking and good luck. Good luck, sorry so wordy. Edited April 9, 2015 by Indrid cold 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Poo Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 No, I appreciate the long comments. Gives me a really good idea of what you think about the subject. I'm very far down on the learning curve. I do want to learn, but not sure I can diagnose a problem. I don't even know how all the parts work. Reading forums helps, but not nearly as good as kinetic learning. I'm just afraid I'll have to shell out a lot to shops before I figure much out. A previous comment mentioned which tools are going to help the most. Not sure if it was an entirely serious remark, but I hope so because I'll probably take that advice. The good thing is that I don't really need a car. This is entirely for fun. I haven't used my own car for years now and will be selling it. My girlfriend's car is all we need between us since I get free public transportation through work and live next to a park & ride. Sweet deal, that. One more question about entering the BRAT world: if I take it out to the middle of the desert, where I like to spend my vacation, how likely is it to strand me there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 No, that was a pretty much serious statement. Almost all work you perform on the vehicle will require just those few sockets. Of course you will want to have each variation of those respective socket sizes though. For instance, you'll want to have a 12 mm socket in both 1/4" and 3/8" drive. Preferably in 1/2" drive as well. The drive part is the size on the other side of the socket, the part that attaches to the ratchet.You'll want the smaller drive sockets for small simple, relatively loose bolts. Maybe for the belt tensioner. You'll want that same size socket in a bigger drive (3/8 or 1/2") for the same size bolt but this one may be holding on the brake caliper, so it will be tighter. Larger size drives enable you to exert more torque. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_freddo Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) 15mm for the starter's lower mounting nut. I can't remember anything else at 15mm off hand. Also add in a 22mm socket for the crank bolt, 36mm socket for the castleated nut on the drive shafts. These two should be purchased seperatly and not in a kit as you won't need 90% of the kit it come in, plus it's cheaper! A 6mm pin punch is also good for drive shaft swaps I've got a metric Sidchrome set 8mm-19mm spanner and socket in the half inch drive. This does me for 99% of my work on cars. I've got an inch drive breaker bar with the 36mm socket. Other basic tools - pliers (stubby and long nose), flat and Phillips head screw drivers. That should just about do it. Also you do not need to have a big spend up on tools to get you started. Shop around for the kit, mine cost about $200AU new. The other bits have been collected along the way as needed. Some found in wrecks - I love the factory tool kit's Phillips/flat head screw driver! My kit now includes wire cutter, stripper and crimpers as I've moved into adding wiring I want/need as well as the odd engine conversion along the way. Now I'm playing with gearboxes... Thinking about it, if you get into engine or gearbox work you should seriously look at a torque wrench - I keep stealing my dad's, he then borrows one from a mate if he needs one :/ Garage sales are a good place to look for some decent tools if you know what you want. Old brand name kits are worth getting second hand if in good condition as they're made like no other kits today IMO. And you may save some coin in the process. I guess start with the basics - learn how to check the oil, do an oil change, how to change a tyre (you'd be surprised how many people can't do this these days!), check/change spark plugs. Basically the essentials to keep your subi going. If you get a vehicle with a dud engine or blown head gasket, get yourself a Haynes manual at the very least. Do some reading, read between the lines/decipher what's required (as needed at times with this manual!) and go from there. The ea81 is a great engine to learn on as it's so basic! You almost couldn't choose a better engine to learn on Going by my experiences I find vehicles with a good body much better as a long term project/keeper than ones that need panels cut to remove rust/spray work. So I look for vehicles with a shot engine or mechanical work needed that have a good/best body for its age to join my stables. Food for thought There really is nothing to be scared of - on an old vehicle where there's loads of community knowledge you can't go wrong. Just don't go trying to port and polish your heads by holding revs and pouring sand into the intake (viral joke)! Cheers Bennie Edited April 10, 2015 by el_freddo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bratman2 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I agree, the flat four is a pretty easy motor to work on. If taken care of generally last a very long time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Haha! "Tyre". You guys are so silly :-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indrid cold Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) You asked how likely to leave you stranded? Our work 2013 Chevy van pool left us along the road 3 times. Cellphone, extra water, umm a few tools, tow strap and your set. Stuff like you described doesn't bother me anymore because it happens, mostly rarely, but if it does it means your out doing something and not watching your gold fish blow bubbles as it swims in circles. Start slowly and go from there, but enjoy the ride while it lasts! Edited April 11, 2015 by Indrid cold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfoyl Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I've had my Brumby (BRAT) for about 8 years now, and have done about 40k miles on it in that time. Apart from upgrades, the only thing it has cost me is one CV boot, oil and filter every 6 months, registration (crazy expensive down under, $500+ a year), insurance (3rd party, $130 a year and hasn't moved in all the time I've had the vehicle), and that's it. Of course, I've upgraded quite a few things along the way - rear discs cost me $100 + shipping down under, bodywork and paint last year was spendy but I traded the panelwork for other things and only paid for the painting, upgraded stereo (second hand from a junkyard), 14" steel rims and tyres to suit, new front and rear bumper bars (front from an 82 for the chrome metal finish to replace the later-model plastic, and back from a US as our local release didn't get a full-length bar), 2 sets of car seat covers, and retro-fitted complete AC system ($300 or so plus my time and a regas). Apart from when I bought it back in 2007 it has only been to a mechanic once, and that was for the CV boot which cost about $80 from memory (and again, our wages are high so that is probably 2-3x what you would pay in the US). I paid $3500 for mine, it's probably still worth something around that figure. Not many cars keep their value like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Poo Posted April 11, 2015 Author Share Posted April 11, 2015 You guys are the best. I'm really liking the tool suggestions. I'm going to go right back to this thread as soon as I get the Brat to start looking for tools and the suggested manual (I might start looking for that now). Dfoyl, holding value is the best thing about vehicles that are already at the bottom of their depreciation curve. The price has stabilized. Now the best choice would be a highly reliable vehicle that's at the bottom of that curve. The BRAT isn't exactly the top choice there, but it sure is a lot more fun. It's probably actually going up in value right now because collectors like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) I like how you think ! What has stranded us with our 80's reliable 'roos ? Well, I have been caught unsuspecting by simple things: fusible links in the plastic box just along from the battery pos terminal- corroded, detached and stopped power to starter side of things. An ignition hotwire and a push got me started and off home to find cause next day - a jumper on the FL would have saved me pushing, running alongside, then jump in battery terminal clamps sometimes break, their hold down bolts work tiny bit loose. So, decent new terminal clamps, spring washers and some lanolin grease sprayed about to keep corrosion to a minimum. Just a clean up of the wire ends is good insurance. in 16 years and two road going Brumbys I have had two ignition modules give up - with prior symtoms. A new module. a Philips #2 screwdriver an a pair of smaler flat blade screwdrivers stashed under the seat is a must. More unseen trouble - remove fuel hoses and blow compressed air through metal fuel lines - catch the crud that spits out the other end of each section. A clean fuel tank and nylon mesh strainer on the pick up inside also a good idea, or remove mesh and use a good pre pump fuel filter. Run fuel cleaner additives from time to time Check the welch plugs in the EA81 heads with a magnet to see if you got stainless or can see they have been replaced with brass ones. If magnet sticks renew with brass or stainless. They are 20mm, three ? per head.If these corrode, they leak water/coolant into oil pan - mimicking a blown head gasket. Do a compression test to get an idea of its health. I have found even a half comp reading in one pot was not felt when driving at any rate. A low reading is an early sign something might b about to bite you. A spark plug thread chaser is a handy little tool to have to ensure spark plug hole threads are clean, so you can grease upnew plugs and guarantee they will come out next time without taking out some of the heads side of the thread. A new clutch cable - very crippling if the bugger goes on you. A new cable is cheaper than a tow fee. A genuine one may never fail you in its lifetime I now lubricate my old clutch cable with lanolin squirted down from engine side - soaks in over a few days, renews soft feel to the clutch pedal. Often keep a spare cable on board in case this one fails. Got a brand new one coming out of another car so not gonna buy one myself just yet Stick in a new oil pressure switch so you know you have a newie less likely to start a leak anytime soon. Edited April 11, 2015 by jono 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmarvelous Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) Really need another vehicle to fall back onto when something goes askew. Hard for me to say, for I have only owned my Brat for 3 years 3 months. It's been just pretty much routine maintence things. I had the shop do an axle, both axles actually replaced and that COST me $900, so when the next boot went out I figured out how to do it myself. Agree, its always good to have a backup car in the family. I did my CV boot by buying a rebuilt axle for 40 dollars from Autozone and spending about an hour getting it in since it was my first time doing it on a Subaru (Loyale 92). The backup car can stay parked and uninsured when you dont need it, just start it up once in a while. When you need it you can add it to the insurance (with Geico I just get online and add it in less than a minute, taking it off is just as easy). I of course registered mine and the cost is not bad since its an older used car (honda accord 87). I think my cost was around 50 bucks last time I registered in here in Texas. The Loyale is used by my Dad as a daily driver in Ft Worth for running errands, shopping etc since he is retired. In the five years we have had it the only money put into it was a new fuel pump (140 dollars) right after I bought it since it had been sitting a long time and apparently that can mess up the fuel pump, a CV shaft, new tires, rear hatchback liftgate struts (about 27 dollars for both), normal oil changes and the brakes (and a master cylinder about 35 bucks which turned out not to be the problem but rather adjusting the parking brake properly). That is it in five years of reliable daily starting and operation without any fails on the road and no car payments for 5 years of ownership. The money saved is amazing in my opinion. Say car payments are 200 dollars a month in a year that is 2400 dollars, in five years that is 12,000 dollars. Mind you I got the Loyale for a steal with 122K miles on it since the guy couldnt drive the car because the CV joint was busted real badly and he thought it was the transmission since it would make a terrible racket as it rolled. I got the car for 74 dollars which was the cost of what the junk yard was going to charge him to take the car out of there since the apt bldg wanted the car moved since it had been parked on the side of the bldg for over 1 year and the fire dept did not like it on their inspection. The body and interior are tight with no rust or major damage, just some very minor dents. If you find a decent used car putting a little money into it if it has a solid engine is much better than paying 200-300 dollars a month in car payments. And if you ever miss those payments for whatever financial reason you lose the car and any money you put into it up to that point. If you are not familiar with cars its always good to take it to a mechanic and have them check the compression etc. One buddy of mine who sold his Eclipse saw the buyer come out with one of those mobile mechanic van dudes that did a compression check and thoroughly checked out the car, the guy even jacked the car up corner by corner and took the wheels off to check the brake pad thickness, I was impressed. I recently did the brakes on several family cars, a mazda 3, altima, and a blazer. Pep boys was quoting 130-200 dollars per axle. You can do the math how much I saved. And brakes are something you will spend money on even with a new car after the first two years depending on how you drive. The altima my mom drives also needed a new radiator since the top plastic tank was cracked (right where my dad likes to rest his hands when he opens the hood to check the fluids. I had it in the back of my mind to tell him not to put his hands there but I always forgot. It was 100 dollars for a radiator that was better than the original, at Autozone. Again worth doing that and the radiator hoses. Car has 170K miles on it but again compared to spending say 250 dollar monthly payments for a new car over the course of a year, you do the math. I am always surprised to see that autoshop is not a required class in high school. Many schools are closing down their auto shops so they can give the kids more algebra class time. In my opinion learning how to do a tune up, brakes, other basic maintenance and learning about a car's systems and how to do basic troubleshooting is probably a thousand times more important in life than a kid solving an equation. And this is coming from a former math teacher. Edited April 12, 2015 by capmarvelous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmarvelous Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) I've wanted a BRAT for a few years now and may be in a financial position to finally get one. I don't really know, though, because I don't really know anything about maintaining such an old vehicle. I'd probably use it less than once a week if I got one. I figure I'd probably do best to pay a little more to get one in really good condition. Regardless, I'm wondering what kinds of issues I can expect to potentially come up and what kind of costs some of you have paid on average each year for new parts or for serious work that needed to be done. What kind of parts can still be ordered and how expensive are they and what kinds of items can now only come from a "parts car?" I could really use some advice about the finances required to maintain a BRAT. http://www.4shared.com/office/Uibwprmv/24542568-How-to-Keep-Your-Suba.html here is a link to the book suggested about keeping the Subie Alive Someone here had a link to all the factory manuals for the different engines. I think if you dig around or ask someone will put up that link, I dont have it handy. Edited April 12, 2015 by capmarvelous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmarvelous Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) Concerning your thought of buying tools, a 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, and 17mm is pretty much all you need to disassemble the entire car :-) I agree, a Craftsman set of combination wrenches from 7mm to 20mm is about the most ESSENTIAL component for working on any car. If you watch Sears specials you can pick one up for less than thirty bucks. I once got a set for 19 dollars on a special sale. From that point on if you grab one of those Sears Craftsman mechanics tool sets with the 3 ratchets (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 inch ratchets) and a great combo of sockets, like can be found in their 179 or 210 piece sets, all of which I have gotten on sale for less than 79 and 99 bucks respectively. The combo wrenches and the sockets will solve 99 percent of your working on a car tool problems. One thing that I consider the poor mans impact wrench and is indispensable for saving the skin on your knuckles is a good rubber mallet that you can hit the combo wrenches or ratchet with to get those tough bolts or nuts off, just make sure to use the other hand to hold the tool on properly at the nut to prevent it from coming off and stripping the corners when you hit the combo wrench's loose end with the mallet. Also with the forum, plethora of youtube videos, and shop manuals in pdf, there is no reason to have any surprises for what you will need to get the job done right. Edited April 12, 2015 by capmarvelous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 "basic troubleshooting is probably a thousand times more important in life than a kid solving an equation. And this is coming from a former math teacher" especially an algebra equation !! - from someone who thought he was gonna be a math teacher - until Calculus totally destroyed that concept. Calculus ??!! mutter, mutter,mutter................. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmarvelous Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Found the link with the Subaru full service manuals http://www.finleyweb.net/JonsStuff/SubaruDocumentation.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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