Need transmission at 132K miles 08 Outback - Mebe Not

[brus brother]

2008 Outback AT 132K miles.

On a 6 hour road trip last month, I heard a whining noise I had hoped was my new tires/pavement. Put car in neutral while cruising down the road at 60 mph but the whine remained the same. After a few miles it stopped. A few days later, travelling home, the same whine recurred but again, stopped after a short while. Before I reached home, a new sound arose.

Now the car developed what I had hoped was the sound of a failing wheel bearing. Sound doesn't change while loading/unloading the bearing by turning the steering wheel side to side.

Subaru tech put it up on a lift and while all set to replace the front driver bearing, instead diagnosed a failing gear box. He placed a long screwdriver against the gearbox with the tires spinning and let me listen to some grumbling from the gearbox.

Took it to a reputable Indie transmission shop yesterday who took it for a test drive but didn't have a lift to fully diagnose. He acknowledged the sound and swerved side to side thinking as I had that it could be a wheel bearing but no change in sound.

Wants me to leave the car for final diagnosis but lacking a second car, I am trying to figure out the what ifs.

Trusted Subie tech quotes a 90K mile used transmission installed for $1500 complete. Indie was closer to $2400 including $1300 labor, based on him finding a used transmission with not as yet determined mileage. He did say it isn't cost effective to rebuild as there are many of these used transmissions around. I am in Fairfield, CT.

As it's our only car, I am concerned about driving it on any long trips as I can't predict if catastrophic failure is in my future.

The gear and transmission fluids are topped off and clean as a whistle.

I guess my concern is that a 90K mile transmission of unknown history isn't that far (?) from my current 132K mile failing transmission. Terrible time to be looking into buying another car. The TB and HGs were done at 95K miles, front suspension bushings etc have been worked over recently and with the exception of some exhaust noise the car is in good shape.

Any thoughts appreciated or suggestions to source transmissions. Any crystal ball thoughts on final failure?

Edited November 27, 2021 by brus brother

[lmdew]

www.car-part.com is a great source to see what's at they yards and prices.

[heartless]

which transmission is it??  the 4EAT or the 5?

4EAT is pretty robust, failures are not real common - yes they do happen, but not that often, so putting in a lower mileage used one would be the best option

the 5spd version is not as robust as the 4, but i don't think random failure is that common.

Other half has an 06 Outback, LL Bean model with the 5spd auto, and has over 200K on his with no problems

[brus brother]

4EAT

by vin search: AT, 2.5L, Outback, w/o turbo; vehicle dynamic control

[idosubaru]

Edit for AT instead of MT

4EATs are fantastically reliable - I wouldn’t hesitate a second to install a used 4EAT.  

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by idosubaru

[idosubaru]

9 hours ago, brus brother said:

Trusted Subie tech quotes a 90K mile used transmission installed for $1500 complete.

Thats a good price and tells you how low demand is for that trans to be that cheap.  When transmissions are in high demand (ie: fail a lot), they are not that cheap on a high value car like yours. 

That’s good they’re trying to diagnose it - this isn’t common. Its probably the front differential or associated front diff bearings.

That can be repaired but one bearing alone is $100 and the ring and pinion set is $600-$1,000. Add labor to address those parts, and pull and remove the trans, - and it’s well over used price. 

[brus brother]

Subie Tech says I have some time as he's heard much worse. Will keep hunting for a lower mileage one around 50K. 

I found ads for partsrequest.com that lists some used JDM transmissions with around 50K miles. Just need to ship from west to east coast. I'll be researching them later today.

Wouldn't mind trading up but the car sales market is ridiculous right now.

Gave our daughter the 2019 so we are trying to nurse the 08 for a while longer.

[Numbchux]

USDM 4EATs are generally very reliable. I would much prefer to buy a used one locally than from an importer.

 

$1500 installed is a good price, especially if that includes a warranty (most junkyards will offer a parts and labor warranty on major components to shops that they work with a lot).

I see several on car-part near me for ~$500-800.

[brus brother]

5 hours ago, Numbchux said:

USDM 4EATs are generally very reliable. I would much prefer to buy a used one locally than from an importer.

 

$1500 installed is a good price, especially if that includes a warranty (most junkyards will offer a parts and labor warranty on major components to shops that they work with a lot).

I see several on car-part near me for ~$500-800.

near me 06880  high mileage (90k miles +) and either 6 month or 90 day part warranty only

found this seller on ebay but spoke with them directly in Washington State. Foreign Engines average 50K miles with 1 year unlimited mileage warranty. $325 + 300 shipping.

https://ebay.to/30v9nAJ

Anyone  local have experience? Their ebay rating is 100%

[Numbchux]

High mileage is 290k, IMO.

I would absolutely rather use a 150k mile USDM 4EAT than a 60k mile one that's been shipped overseas. I did buy an EJ201 on Ebay, but only because good EJ251s are not cheap or easy to come buy. Just my $.02

 

Most junkyards only offer a labor warranty to a shop, not to a private buyer.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Numbchux

[idosubaru]

22 hours ago, brus brother said:

 

I found ads for partsrequest.com that lists some used JDM transmissions with around 50K miles. Just need to ship from west to east coast. I'll be researching them later today.

I've bought a few JDM engines and trans.  My daily driver is an H6 I installed a 100,000 miles ago. Great results - excellent pricing and they've always been squeaky clean as if they have low miles.  Newer 2005+ engines are prone to have a damaged connectors or two due to shipping because they of all that variable valve and oil senders/solenoids sticking out everywhere. Minor, I just remedy that myself. 

Keep in mind no matter what they say - you never know the actual mileage.  It's just a rough average based on Japanese driving and car regulation laws that tend to decrease the economic sense of keeping cars long term. 

And all the suppliers are selling the same exact parts from the same source - none have some "secret supply" of Japanese parts that are any different than another company.  So look at reviews in terms of individual service and parts comments in terms of any JDM parts regardless of what stateside company is selling.  Don't waste time wondering or worrying if one JDM supplier has "better parts" than another.   They're all just filling containers from the dismantling services in Japan. 

 

15 hours ago, brus brother said:

near me 06880  high mileage (90k miles +) and either 6 month or 90 day part warranty only

found this seller on ebay but spoke with them directly in Washington State. Foreign Engines average 50K miles with 1 year unlimited mileage warranty. $325 + 300 shipping.

https://ebay.to/30v9nAJ

Anyone  local have experience? Their ebay rating is 100%

 

90k is no big deal for a 4EAT. The difference between a 50k and 90k trans is a wash and more dependent on history/how it was driven or assembled/luck than anything practical related to internals.  That's benign.  I would only pay a very small premium for that 40k, not much. 

That's an ideal source, local, can talk tot them, easier warranty if needed and you can sometimes verify the source vehicle - if it lot drove or why it was totaled.   4EAT's are my favorite Subaru transmission - they're excellent - so the warranty isn't likely to be needed - but you've got it if you do. 

That's probably the one I buy if they have good reviews or are locally known/reputable.  I'd pay more for the reputable/local place and pay more attention to that than mileage. 

For example - two local yards that often have lots of Subaru's.  One has smooth transactions, disassembles and stores their parts in massive warehouses inside out of the elements, has the parts pulled for you ahead of time, knows what they have, is very helpful and organized.  Another local yard has more subarus but they let the cars and parts lay exposed outside, won't remove them until the last minute (rushed, banging, cutting, tossing it around), aren't very helpful, poor attitudes (i can't imagine how many complaints they must get)...anyway - I'll pay a premium to buy from the other company although they're actually often cheaper or the same somehow. 

Anyway I'd base my decision more on that and the picture of the car than 50k or 90k.  Some car-part.com places show pictures of the car so you can see the damage.  Might have to navigate a body part or three to find a picture of the car if they listed pictures for some parts but not the trans. 

15 hours ago, brus brother said:

near me 06880  high mileage (90k miles +) and either 6 month or 90 day part warranty only

found this seller on ebay but spoke with them directly in Washington State. Foreign Engines average 50K miles with 1 year unlimited mileage warranty. $325 + 300 shipping.

https://ebay.to/30v9nAJ

Anyone  local have experience? Their ebay rating is 100%

Again - these sellers have no magic sauce for parts support.  So the parts from any JDM are the same.  And eBay has fairly strict policies that make it really hard (or dumb) to hose a customer.  They're working on volume pricing with these Subaru trans and aren't going to suffer a poor review.  I think the majority of my JDM engines/trans have been ebay purchases.  Most of these companies on ebay you can look up their direct website too - that might give you a better idea for buying from them and see their other options (though that's probably not  needed on a 4EAT). 

[idosubaru]

Check the ATF for debris and ask them to blow the AT lines out with compressed air (or fluid if they can).  Or just blow out the ATF lines and radiators if they can if there's any debris in it. 

And definitely change the AT filter. 

I would actually guess it's diff related and not the trans so that's probably not even necessary but since I don't know we have to assume it could be the trans.

[brus brother]

7 hours ago, idosubaru said:

Check the ATF for debris and ask them to blow the AT lines out with compressed air (or fluid if they can).  Or just blow out the ATF lines and radiators if they can if there's any debris in it. 

And definitely change the AT filter. 

I would actually guess it's diff related and not the trans so that's probably not even necessary but since I don't know we have to assume it could be the trans.

Are you talking about diagnosis of the grumbly old transmission?

Two trusted Subaru mechanics gave it the thumbs down. Stethoscope on the gearbox produced grumbling. No sounds coming from the wheel bearing that I had originally suspected.

I found a USDM trany with 91K for $550 delivered to my address. 6 month warranty.

Thanks all for elbowing me past the JDMs.

[Numbchux]

5 minutes ago, brus brother said:

Are you talking about diagnosis of the grumbly old transmission?

Two trusted Subaru mechanics gave it the thumbs down. Stethoscope on the gearbox produced grumbling. No sounds coming from the wheel bearing that I had originally suspected.

I found a USDM trany with 91K for $550 delivered to my address. 6 month warranty.

Thanks all for elbowing me past the JDMs.

He's talking about flushing any debris from your old transmission out of the transmission cooler so it doesn't damage the "new" transmission. And, that if it's a diff failure, the ATF should not be contaminated. But better safe than sorry.

Subaru makes a transmission cooler flush product, an aerosol can with a hose to flush anything out of there for the same reason. Any dealer will have it, as they have to use it with every warranty transmission replacement.

[brus brother]

Thanks Numbchux for the clarification.

As a retired dentist, I appreciate the sensibility as I always asked the patient to rinse and spit before proceeding 

[idosubaru]

On 11/19/2021 at 3:36 PM, brus brother said:

Are you talking about diagnosis of the grumbly old transmission?

Two trusted Subaru mechanics gave it the thumbs down. Stethoscope on the gearbox produced grumbling. No sounds coming from the wheel bearing that I had originally suspected.

I found a USDM trany with 91K for $550 delivered to my address. 6 month warranty.

Thanks all for elbowing me past the JDMs.

As he clarified….

check diff fluid first. The diff fluid (and any contaminants) is self contained entirely to the trans.  If you pull the old trans and toss it - all the diff fluid and contaminants are also gone. It’ll either be larger bits and pieces of gear teeth or “liquified” bearing material swirling suspended in solution in the gear oil.  This would be a good sign - no need to worry about the ATF lines  being contaminated.

But that’s not the case with the ATF.  Throw the trans away and there’s still residual fluid (and potential debris) in the hard lines and rubber lines to the trans, ATF filter, cold and hard lines to and from the radiator and inside the radiator itself.

Flush all of those ATF lines out if the diff fluid was clean with no signs of gear debris or swirling metal bearing contaminant. 

[idosubaru]

On 11/19/2021 at 3:36 PM, brus brother said:

Thanks all for elbowing me past the JDMs.

You’re welcome. They’re a superior option sometimes, the 4EAT isn’t typically one of them.  A little context and nuance goes a long way for making an informed decision.

Good luck getting it all finished up. Hope it goes smooth….before or after holidays?!

[lmdew]

95K Colorado Subaru $2000 bad body.

https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/aurora-2008-suburu-ouback-body-bad/7410667635.html

[brus brother]

7 hours ago, lmdew said:

95K Colorado Subaru $2000 bad body.

https://denver.craigslist.org/cto/d/aurora-2008-suburu-ouback-body-bad/7410667635.html

Thanks but no engine, no exhaust, (that would make it easier to grab the transmission), busted glass, bad body...

I'll stick with the devil I know.

$2K seems high for what you aren't getting.

[brus brother]

Kept hearing the sound from front left, not central to transmission/gearbox.

Took to Indie transmission shop for a quick look see. He drove it alone (Covid protocol) came back and said, good news... wheel bearing.

Had it replaced today and that sound is gone, although now I can hear every other creak and groan from ye old clunker.

Spinning the old bearing by hand off the car it feels real crunchy.

Common things happen commonly. Occam's razor.

Edited November 27, 2021 by brus brother

[lmdew]

Much better outcome then a trans swap and the problem would have still been there.

Great news!

[brus brother]

Is there no way to make these bearings serviceable?

At $200+ a pop plus installation it isn't "cheap" but if it is a seal failure, then re-greasing/servicing won't help regardless.

Reviewing old posts describe greater incidence of front failures possibly attributed to greater brake heat up front.

 

[idosubaru]

4 hours ago, brus brother said:

Is there no way to make these bearings serviceable?

At $200+ a pop plus installation it isn't "cheap" but if it is a seal failure, then re-greasing/servicing won't help regardless.

Reviewing old posts describe greater incidence of front failures possibly attributed to greater brake heat up front.

 

Correct. Fronts are more exposed to heat and temp/cycling, road debris, additional functionality of steering components and exposure rates (axles removed, boots or replacement), and heavier (front heavier than rear and car nose dives in quick brake application).   It’s just an all around busier higher stress area.

When you say “serviceable” do you mean grease them like the 70s or replace just the bearing like the 90s?

If you mean “like the 90s”, for Subaru I’d guess it’s simply due to the increasing complications of labor, special tools, and hub failures to replace them. Hub Tamer tools, rusted in parts pressing complications, deformed hubs requiring multiple bearing replacements.  And they need great seals   Ideally everyone is cleaning or repalcing their wheel seals with every axle removal - boots, replace, etc. That’s a lot of effort and hard to make consistently accomplished.  Given the parts costs, labor, rust, presses, special tools, wheel seal replacement issues and damaged hubs - the cost isn’t really extravagantly different.

There are more bearing failures now than in the 90s. Its not just Subaru either. Honda and Toyota’s have their weaker bearings as well. It’s an industry wide shift.

My curiosity is why a 5 year old 1992 legacy bearing was far less likely to fail than a 5 year old Subaru (or Honda or Toyota) bearing today. It seems that current bearings should be capable of similar reliability but for some reason they’re not. OEM bearings don’t strand a vehicle and give ample warning and for new car consumers aren’t a detriment to purchase.

Why do newer bearings have higher ratws of failure?  Is it increasing vehicle weight? I doubt it…but I can’t think of any other significant changes. Id guess they’re assuming the trade offs of earlier issues and new ones is tolerable to consumers.

If you mean “greasable” 70s  bearings - 

As usual there’s a pros and cons list. Keep them greased, sealed and from overheating and bearings are likely to last the life of the vehicle. Theoretically sealed is great.  But it isn’t practical for modern consumers and 200,000 mile vehicles seeing numerous axles changes, mud, snow, rust, salt, etc.  there’s no shortage of equipment, trailer, tractor, boat and other serviceable bearing issues.  A rusty nippple is likely in the northeast and annoying if it breaks off or clogs. My friend that daily drives 1970s cars is playing with bearings every 30k. Thats cool he loves it. I’ll pass on that but gladly spend my time worrying about tire circumference LOLOL

1970s Serviceable isn’t scalable to the masses of consumers less familiar with mechanics and maintenance.

[idosubaru]

Cheers for it being a bearing!!

I’ve encountered a couple with no diagnosable symptom. It would make noise while driving straight (under load/higher rpms I guess). That’s it.  No play. No change when turning while driving. No feel when turned by hand.  No noise with stethoscope. No temp change after driving.

Even more odd - they were lumpy feeling when rotated once removed from the vehicle.