rogue Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=820061 Howdy all. Keith sent me over to post here... I feel so old-school now Basically I screwed up a timing belt change on an EJ22, mistaking the piston position mark on the crank sprocket for the timing belt alignment mark. I did not detect my mistake and tried to start it... it wouldn't start, obviously, and I think I've bent valves. I would imagine the block/pistons wouldn't be hurt too badly since I was only running on the starter, but what do I know? Looking for advice and help... I'd like to fix this motor if it's possible, pull the heads myself and get new valves in there... but I may be looking at a swap as a cheaper and safer option now. Thanks all, -Ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Are you sure you've got the interference 2.2L? Mine is non interference (1996) but I know the 2.2L eventually became interference but I dont know when exactly. Josh (Legacy777) should know about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 You didn't mention, but have you tried correcting the belt error, then cranking it around with a breaker bar for at least two full revs? If that goes well try starting it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=820061 Howdy all. Keith sent me over to post here... I feel so old-school now Basically I screwed up a timing belt change on an EJ22, mistaking the piston position mark on the crank sprocket for the timing belt alignment mark. I did not detect my mistake and tried to start it... it wouldn't start, obviously, and I think I've bent valves. I would imagine the block/pistons wouldn't be hurt too badly since I was only running on the starter, but what do I know? Looking for advice and help... I'd like to fix this motor if it's possible, pull the heads myself and get new valves in there... but I may be looking at a swap as a cheaper and safer option now. Thanks all, -Ted The pistons will also be dinged up, at the least. The block should be OK though. It will be a lot of work to fix this. You are far better off swapping the motor out and rebuilding it as a long term project to use as a spare down the road. Wheather you fix it now or as a long term project, you will be putting a lot of cash into this engine if you keep it. That is easier to take, perhaps, if spread out over a longer period. Meanwhile, you will have your Subie back on the road (if you take the swap out option), w2hile you repair this engine. . . You are looking at valves at least, and perhaps heads (or at least head work. ie:valve guides and such) along with the possability of needing new pistons (slight, but there). Swap out the engine and get the car back on the road, then you can take the old engine apart ande asses the level of damage caused by the misalignment. You can go from there as you see fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 You didn't mention, but have you tried correcting the belt error, then cranking it around with a breaker bar for at least two full revs? If that goes well try starting it up. Sorry... yes, I corrected the belt error and cranked it around by hand. It cranks smoothly, but when it starts it sounds like it's trying to run on 3 cylinders or something... very shaky, rough idle. I'm not 100% sure it's bent valves, but i'm 95%. I need to do a compression test, then pull the heads. Just haven't had time yet this week. Right now I'm weighing options. I want to stay inexpensive and end up with something reliable (commuter car, doesn't have to be fast) and I don't mind doing work myself (from now on with someone to tell me when I've done stupid). 1) Pull heads, replace valves. Seems like the least parts to buy and I can leave the shortblock in the car. No swap compatibility issues. 2) Pull heads, replace heads. I can get rebuilt heads from CCR or someplace... but for how much $$? 3) Motor swap. Could find a motor for $200ish in theory, either an EJ25 or EJ22... but then I have to wonder what condition that new motor is in, and deal with the physical swap. The car is nose-in to my 1 car garage right now, so it might be a bit of a puzzle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 The pistons will also be dinged up, at the least. The block should be OK though. It will be a lot of work to fix this. You are far better off swapping the motor out and rebuilding it as a long term project to use as a spare down the road. Wheather you fix it now or as a long term project, you will be putting a lot of cash into this engine if you keep it. That is easier to take, perhaps, if spread out over a longer period. Meanwhile, you will have your Subie back on the road (if you take the swap out option), w2hile you repair this engine. . . You are looking at valves at least, and perhaps heads (or at least head work. ie:valve guides and such) along with the possability of needing new pistons (slight, but there). Swap out the engine and get the car back on the road, then you can take the old engine apart ande asses the level of damage caused by the misalignment. You can go from there as you see fit. Sanjay: thanks... That's basically where the swap option would leave me. I also have a 96 Outback that takes an EJ22, 140k on that car and the motor is starting to eat oil. If I swap, I'd like to fix THIS block to eventually throw in THERE... How expensive are we talking? Minimal research suggests $150 gets me gaskets and valves, if I feel up to doing the work myself. If I need valve guides, that'll be more... but how much overall do you think I'd be running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Sanjay: thanks... That's basically where the swap option would leave me. I also have a 96 Outback that takes an EJ22, 140k on that car and the motor is starting to eat oil. If I swap, I'd like to fix THIS block to eventually throw in THERE... How expensive are we talking? Minimal research suggests $150 gets me gaskets and valves, if I feel up to doing the work myself. If I need valve guides, that'll be more... but how much overall do you think I'd be running? First of all, take the car out of the garage and turn it around (back it into the garage) so you can get at the engine bay more easily. As for how much it would cost, I dunno. look around for the cost of rebuilt heads, as a high estimate. when you pull the heads off, you will need to have them surfaced at the least (or you will be doing the job over soon). In my area I can get them done for $60 a head just to surface them. Now if the valves are bent, they may have damaged the valve guides, which would need to be replaced, that at least doubles the cost of the work to the heads. On top of that, there is the likelyhood of cracks in the head (those valves are hardened steel, the heads are aluminum, which do you think will be the first to go?), or at least divits on the valve seats. If that is the case, you have just exceeded the cost of rebuilt heads. That is just in machine shop work. Autozone in my area asks $450 a side for rebuilt EJ22 NA heads for a 97. So overall you are looking at 1K in parts as a safe bet. Oh, and the machine shop work you cannot do yourself, unless you happen to have a full machine shop at your disposal. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Are you sure you've got the interference 2.2L? Mine is non interference (1996) but I know the 2.2L eventually became interference but I dont know when exactly. Josh (Legacy777) should know about that. the EJ22 became interferance in late 1996, for the '97 model year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 OK, I have a friend in CA that has a 96 EJ22 for $1,100, unless you get a better price. The engine in question has just over 60K miles on it. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 OK, I have a friend in CA that has a 96 EJ22 for $1,100, unless you get a better price. The engine in question has just over 60K miles on it. . . Yipe! Well, that's pretty far from VA... and I paid $200 for a DOHC EJ25 from a 98 Outback with 110k on it in good running order last year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Yipe! Well, that's pretty far from VA... and I paid $200 for a DOHC EJ25 from a 98 Outback with 110k on it in good running order last year... Yeah, I was thinking that it would not be a good deal for you either, but I gave the price as a reference number. . . The heads I quoted are from Autozone, and are rebuilt, so the machine shop work has been done on them. six of one, half a dozen of the other from where I'm sitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 Yeah, I was thinking that it would not be a good deal for you either, but I gave the price as a reference number. . . The heads I quoted are from Autozone, and are rebuilt, so the machine shop work has been done on them. six of one, half a dozen of the other from where I'm sitting. Yes, thank you, I appreciate the help and advice I know how much shop-work will cost. But I've tasted of the $200 private-party engine sale, and it tasted sweet... now I'm spoiled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Yes, thank you, I appreciate the help and advice I know how much shop-work will cost. But I've tasted of the $200 private-party engine sale, and it tasted sweet... now I'm spoiled. Best of luck to you. I honestly hope you can get annother deal like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 Walcome to the ULTIMATE Subaru Message Board Over here we deal with everything, not just Imrepzars. Plus there a good amount of people on here that do this stuff for a living. Especially people like Emily from CCR who can with out a doubt tell you what years of what were what and what not. Oh, and CCR stands for Colorado Component Rebiulders who specialize in rebuilt Subaru engines and parts. They have good prices on rebuilt engines. http://www.ccrengines.com/ Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted August 5, 2005 Author Share Posted August 5, 2005 Thanks I'll figure this beast out... somehow. I'll be sure to post pics whenever I get the heads off, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Sorry, but I'm having a hard time following this thread. I read a lot of conclusions being drawn and a lot of suggestions flying, but unless I missed something we don't even know if the EJ22 in question is an interference engine or not. Rogue, you should've stated in your first post what model year your vehicle is. It makes a big difference. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted August 5, 2005 Author Share Posted August 5, 2005 Sorry, but I'm having a hard time following this thread. I read a lot of conclusions being drawn and a lot of suggestions flying, but unless I missed something we don't even know if the EJ22 in question is an interference engine or not. Rogue, you should've stated in your first post what model year your vehicle is. It makes a big difference. Good luck. Putting it as the very first 2 letters (numbers) in the title wasn't enough? It's interference. We can tell because 1) it's a 97 and 2) I seem to have smashed the valves into the cylinders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drquasievil Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 OK. So you tried to save a few $$$$ and changed the timing belt yourself and killed the motor. There is lots of talent on this board but even with all the info they'll provide, they can't do it for you. Do yourself a favor and either get another car or have someone else swap the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 OK. So you tried to save a few $$$$ and changed the timing belt yourself and killed the motor. There is lots of talent on this board but even with all the info they'll provide, they can't do it for you. Do yourself a favor and either get another car or have someone else swap the engine. That's just plain old not nice. Ted made a simple mistake. We ALL make mistakes. Sorry Ted. I've got "lots of talent" and I still managed to mistake having the torque convertor fully engaged on trans of the new wagon I bought, and proceded to destroy the pump inside the trans. We all make mistakes, some are just more costly than others. (PS, coming soon to a VA rally-x near you, 96 Legacy GT wagon. 2.5 Slaughtermatic. 4wd Stock and not a care in the world! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Putting it as the very first 2 letters (numbers) in the title wasn't enough? It was enough for everyone else . . . but not me, I guess! Sincere apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwst Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 I've replaced a lot of engines on various cars...and priced junk yard engines on Subarus. I have found them to run about $350 to $700 for a used engine. That would definately be the best, easiest and safest choice. Once you open up and engine...so many things can go wrong on the rebuild...and it is rarely worth the time or cost. huge amount of time. Takes specialty tools...which I don't have and have to "rent". Just the cost of pistons, machine work, valves and gaskets...it will cost at least $350. I'd make sure the belt was on right, then run the compression test. Then junk yard time. I do not recommend a remanufactured engine, because of the same problems of doing it yourself...too many things that can go wrong if it wasn't rebuilt just right. And the nimrods who rebuild the remans don't care as much as you do, so less careful. Just my 2 cents. If you do a search on "non interface or interface" I had a discussion earlier on when the 2.2L switched to interface. The rummor is in 1997. Maybe the 1990-1996 are non interface. I think that is the cut off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Just a thought. I know you talked about wanting to buy a new engine lift to make things easier and do it right if you do indeed swap. Since you will most likely need to take the intake manifold off to swap onto the new motor. You may want to just tear down the engine in the car. Rip off all the accesories, then the intake, and then the heads. This will allow you to take it out with out the lift, and also allow you to look at things and decide if you want a newly used motor. I did that on my RX, fully knowing I was going to be pulling the engine out anyway. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 5, 2005 Share Posted August 5, 2005 Sorry, but I'm having a hard time following this thread. I read a lot of conclusions being drawn and a lot of suggestions flying, but unless I missed something we don't even know if the EJ22 in question is an interference engine or not. Rogue, you should've stated in your first post what model year your vehicle is. It makes a big difference. Good luck. He did. it is a MY97, and thus interference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogue Posted August 8, 2005 Author Share Posted August 8, 2005 Just a thought. I know you talked about wanting to buy a new engine lift to make things easier and do it right if you do indeed swap. Since you will most likely need to take the intake manifold off to swap onto the new motor. You may want to just tear down the engine in the car. Rip off all the accesories, then the intake, and then the heads. This will allow you to take it out with out the lift, and also allow you to look at things and decide if you want a newly used motor. I did that on my RX, fully knowing I was going to be pulling the engine out anyway. Keith Yes, was thinking the same thing However, it looks like I'm 99% sure I'll need the hoist anyway, and they're only $100 so it's not a big deal. I'm going to try to turn the car around and reconfigure the garage to Swap Mode, since I hadn't planned this path... Thanks again to all for your advice and help, at least now my options are clear Will let people know how it goes. At this point I'm looking for a DOHC EJ25 to drop in there so I can at least feel like this ordeal was WORTH something (more torque!) but it may end up being just an old EJ22 that keeps it going for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Interesting, we've been having the interference/non-interference fight here for the last few days. Apparently, '97 was the model year (not manufacture date) that the EJ22 became interference; and there's no apparent way to tell from the outside.....altho I suspect the BB in the serial number might be a clue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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