Slegacy96 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 After exploring the Lexus website, I discovered that they are actually quite the threat to the Subaru buyer who can afford a pricy luxury vehicle. Model by model, Lexus is outfitting their cars with hybrid technology and All Wheel Drive. That makes them quite attractive to me and in 6 years when Im up for a new car, Id now consider a pre owned Lexus hybrid. As I have stated in previous threads, Subaru needs to get their act together, and a good start would be minimzing the number of turbos. The cost of a turbo is very unatractive to me and who can afford $3.00 a gallon at 19 mpg. It sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 the volvo crosscountry is almost a super nice carbon copy of an outback... now that AWD technology is becoming common they do have to do something different... with the B9 being the same thing 90% of other car companies already make... suby just isn't a big enough company(or just to darn slow) to keep up... toyota, honda, and nissan have the money to get things done... same goes for the domestic... with ford coming out with the 500 and the freestyle suby has some tough competition ahead... every car company is clueing into the AWD "era" but subaru was there over 10 years ago... they need something new and amazing to keep suby customers loyal... your right about the turbo thing... every model made my subaru has a turbo option... maybe they should stop thinking about that and maybe bringing in the B3(its the justy remake... thats what its called right?)... with suzuki getting there areo all AWD'ved up... i see tons of those cars here... ok its 2:20... i'm gonna go to bed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbhrps Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Slegacy96, In 97 my wife bought a new Lexus ES300 and I purchased a new OBW LTD. Now she has an 04 ES330 and I drive an 02 OBW LTD. The 2 Lexus ES's have been flawless, requiring only the usual oil changes, brake jobs, wiper replacements, etc. Neither one has had a wrench on them otherwise. They are as good on fuel as the Subies, but far nicer to drive and cruise in, and will suck the doorknobs off the Subie (no surprise there, a 6 versus a 4). On a long trip they were the vehicle of choice. But if you were antique hunting, getting gardening supplies, or driving in less than ideal winter conditions, the OBW's were unstoppable. They did and do require more attention in the mechanical areas, ocassional wheel bearings, stalled power antennas, head gasket replacement, piston slap, and all of the usual required areas of maintenance. At present, we require 2 vehicles, but very soon when my wife retires, we'll be able to get by on one, and hands down a Lexus all wheel drive will be the one we go with. What would be really nice would be a Lexus wagon all wheel drive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05blusub Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Traitor...just kidding. Actually I was thinking about the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. I could not justify the 10 thousand dollars more than my new OBW. We do have an 05 Prius. OB does the dirty work, Prius for trips. Would like to get down to one vehicle....Wonder if the higher ups at Subaru are thinking about Hybrids/alternative vehicles? OK, so I went off topic.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarubrat Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I wouldn't mind if they built a hybrid. I think the turbo engine option should be available on all cars, if you don't want it don't buy it. I really don't care what they roll out or option just as long as they continue to to develop the Impreza line as they have for the last 7 years. I would however love to see them sell a sports car in the 50~70k range that would be solidly in the supercar world given what they did with the STI at 32k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnuman Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I would however love to see them sell a sports car in the 50~70k range that would be solidly in the supercar world given what they did with the STI at 32k. They tried that with the SVX, and did it poorly. Don't get me wrong, the SVX is a great car, but it was not able to compete in that arena. Something about not offering a manual tranny, I think. . . It would be nice to get an EJ30(?) H6 with a manual. Both the LL Bean Outback and the Tribeca have only autos available. Hasn't Subaru learned yet that only offering an auto tranny on an H6 will kill the trannies, and the platform with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 They tried that with the SVX, and did it poorly. Don't get me wrong, the SVX is a great car, but it was not able to compete in that arena. Something about not offering a manual tranny, I think. . . the SVX was HOW MUCH?!?! was it really in the 50-70k price range??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subarubrat Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 The SVX was a luxury-sportscar intruduced at the worst moment, just as the SUV boom was exploding and the luxury_sports car market was dying. It is a great car but a very different car from what I am talking about. I am wanting to see a bare bones monster driving machine. Mid/rear engine, 2 seater, 500Hp plus, tube space frame, composite/glass body, all the standards you see in a supercar. Plus all the vents and fins that go along with it. The SVX was selling in the 30s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slegacy96 Posted August 13, 2005 Author Share Posted August 13, 2005 I wouldn't mind if they built a hybrid. I think the turbo engine option should be available on all cars, if you don't want it don't buy it. Its not theres anything wrong with the turbo. I wanna get another Legacy GT eventually and Id be much happier with an H6 for the added power than paying the extra cost to run a turbo. And yes. the SVX should have been available in a 5 speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jib Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 the volvo crosscountry is almost a super nice carbon copy of an outback... Maybe it looks that way on the outside, but the Volvo Halidex (sp?) AWD system is a far more technologically advanced system than the Subaru AWD. It may be the most advanced AWD in production. I have A Volvo too (XC90, not the XC70) and love both of these cars, each in their own way, but these are totally different vehicles, not compariable, especially since the Volvo was nearly twice the cost of the Subie. Jack 1960 Triumph TR3 1980 Triumph TR8 (3.5 liter V8) 2001 Subie Legacy GT Wagon 5-speed AWD 2005 Volvo XC90 2.5 liter Turbo 5-cylinder AWD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakoTGrimes Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 There's a big problem with hybrids. Aside from all the as of yet unknown things that can go wrong with them... Hybrids are made to pollute less. Honda and Toyota making them suggests that one day they will convert the whole line to fully electric, leaving Prius and Insight owners with half-"evil polluters" and half prototype motor driven cars that nobody wants. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefy Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 SakoTGrimes There's a big problem with hybrids. Aside from all the as of yet unknown things that can go wrong with them... Hybrids are made to pollute less. Honda and Toyota making them suggests that one day they will convert the whole line to fully electric, leaving Prius and Insight owners with half-"evil polluters" and half prototype motor driven cars that nobody wants. Just a thought. they went away from fully electric cars... because people didn't like to plug them in and because of the lack of storage because of the large amount of power cells... not to mention the weight... now with lithium ion cells it might be a little better but fully electric cars isn't going to happen anytime soon... just my guess anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slegacy96 Posted August 15, 2005 Author Share Posted August 15, 2005 they went away from fully electric cars... because people didn't like to plug them in and because of the lack of storage because of the large amount of power cells... not to mention the weight... now with lithium ion cells it might be a little better but fully electric cars isn't going to happen anytime soon... just my guess anyway... Agreed. Those electric Chrysler mini vans are scrap now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjwirth Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 they went away from fully electric cars... because people didn't like to plug them in and because of the lack of storage because of the large amount of power cells... not to mention the weight... now with lithium ion cells it might be a little better but fully electric cars isn't going to happen anytime soon... just my guess anyway... THis is all true, but i think the biggest reason is that the infrastructure wasn't there- where do you "fill up" on electricity outside your home. The same issue exists with hydrogen and natural gas cars today. Maybe these plugin hybrids will transition the way- but to me, this is as cumbersome as carrying a laptop with a zip, floppy, and cd drive because you want all your "bases covered." I'm personally a fan of hybrids- i think it's a good stopgap until we develop other technology. I only wish manufacturers would stop marketing it as a performance enhancement. (why do I need a 270hp highlander hybrid? give me a 200 hp highlander with better gas mileage) Getting back to the lexus portion of this thread, i think this issue points out why subaru has to introduce cars like the tribeca. Subaru owners are jumping ship, not because subarus suck, but because there isn't a car that meets their needs. No you can't make everyone happy, but you do have to carefully choose what markets to go into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbird Man Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Another problem with electrics is how long it takes to charge them, if you're running around town in stop and go traffic, while electric is mr efficent than gas in this case, you will run the batteries down, then you have to stop for at least 20-30 min to recharge before you can go on. And about the Lexus, acura, Mazda, Volvo, etc. AWD systems, some may be more technologicly advanced but Subaru still has one of the best systems overall simply beacuse they have been doing it longer. That said, I agree Subaru needs to do something to compete beacuse the common man dosen't know the difference between a clutch pack and a viscous coupleing. here's my plan. 1. Bring back the BRAT, not the baja the brat, a 2dr with a pickup bed based on the impreza chassis. Plenty of younger people want the hauling ability of a small truck at better mileage. 2. A crossover on the tribecca platform, tribecca is not a very good design for an SUV and the mini street SUVs are waneing replaceing them are crossovers like the ford freestyle and Pacifica. 3. Lower cost hatchback, this is already being talked about and we "might" see one by 2008-2009. 4. Motorsports, Factory backed enteries into speed touring car challange, and ALMS. Subaru is leery of this after they got burned on their Formula 1 program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swc7916 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I'm personally a fan of hybrids- i think it's a good stopgap until we develop other technology. Hybrid cars are just that - a stopgap technology. Unless I intended to drive one a lot and wear it out in less than 10 years I don't think that I would want one, or at least won't spend the extra money for one. These cars seem to me to be terribly complicated and the technology seems to be in its' infancy; I wonder if they'll be viewed as a passing fad a few years from now. I only wish manufacturers would stop marketing it as a performance enhancement. (why do I need a 270hp highlander hybrid? give me a 200 hp highlander with better gas mileage). Toyota needs to produce a 270hp Highlander hybrid in order to sell it - the original hybrids were sold to the "greenies" who didn't mind driving a two-passenger, low-performance car as long as they got high gas mileage and low pollution. The buyer who is willing to spend upwards of $40k for a car is not going to settle for that; if they're going to spend more, they want the improved gas mileage AND the performance. And I don't blame them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slegacy96 Posted August 15, 2005 Author Share Posted August 15, 2005 Toyota needs to produce a 270hp Highlander hybrid in order to sell it - the original hybrids were sold to the "greenies" who didn't mind driving a two-passenger, low-performance car as long as they got high gas mileage and low pollution. The buyer who is willing to spend upwards of $40k for a car is not going to settle for that; if they're going to spend more, they want the improved gas mileage AND the performance. And I don't blame them. Its not that I disagree with you but I would expect that more horsepower in a Lexus versus a toyota where you would have enough to run effectively. But since they are the same company and its new technology, why would they engineer multiple engines right now? Im assuming the new Camry and GS will have the same as the RX and Highlander. I havent found any info on it yet. I dont think Hybrids will go away. For someone like me, who wants to see continuation of the combustion engine, hybrids are more appealing than a hydrogen car. I cant imagine giving up my 5 speed and the roar of the firing cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swc7916 Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I dont think Hybrids will go away. For someone like me, who wants to see continuation of the combustion engine, hybrids are more appealing than a hydrogen car. I cant imagine giving up my 5 speed and the roar of the firing cylinders. Actually, hybrids make more sense than hydrogen or electric autos. Gasoline is extremely energy-dense while batteries (at least the current technology) and hydrogen is not; so you can carry enough of it for reasonable driving range. Also, most people only look at the pollution coming out of the tailpipe - where do people think that the electricity comes from? Do they realize that it may be produced at a coal-fired plant that is polluting SOMEWHERE ELSE? Or don't people realize that hydrogen does not come free - that you have to use electricity to produce it from water and you never get back the energy that you put in? What would happen if a large fraction of the automobiles depended on the power grid for their energy? When was the last time you saw a new generating plant being built? These are reasons why I don't see large-scale use of full electric or hydrogen-powered vehicles - it's just a transfer of energy from gasoline to the domestic power grid, which I don't think has the capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05blusub Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I like my OBW a lot, but also like driving the 2005 Prius I bought for my wife. 11 thousand miles so far, no problems, average MPG 49.7. When I need the Subaru, hauling stuff, snow season, back roads, I am set. The rest of the time the Toy Prius is just great. Still need two cars, this is our answer. so far.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Maybe it looks that way on the outside, but the Volvo Halidex (sp?) AWD system is a far more technologically advanced system than the Subaru AWD. It may be the most advanced AWD in production. I have A Volvo too (XC90, not the XC70) and love both of these cars, each in their own way, but these are totally different vehicles, not compariable, especially since the Volvo was nearly twice the cost of the Subie. Subaru has two AWD systems. The VTD system used on the 6's and turbos is well proven. A lot of manufacturers are moving away from Haldex for various reasons and they offer no performance advantage over even the basic AWD system in use on 4 cyl Subarus. //As I have stated in previous threads, Subaru needs to get their act together, and a good start would be minimzing the number of turbos. The cost of a turbo is very unatractive [sic] to me and who can afford $3.00 a gallon at 19 mpg. It sucks. The SI-Drive equipped turbos are very competitive with other AWD crossovers. Acura, BMW, Mazda, and Mini have all brought new turbocharged models to the market. Subaru sales are at an all time high and you are driving one that is two generations old - and one that did not sell well at that. You are not the target market. A Lexus RX400h - about the size of a Tribeca - has an MSRP of over $42,000. That's beyond what folks are spending for any Subaru. No one knows what will happen to hybrid vehicles when the battery fails - estimated replacement costs are in the range of $10,000 and is likely an environmental nightmare. A used hybrid may prove to be the worst possible automotive purchase - one reason why they are expected to retain their 1% market share. A Subaru station wagon and an eBike make a whole lot more sense for most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceyWV Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Resurrection?! Why don't hybrids have a gas or even diesel engine and use electric to turn the wheels instead of the odd system they have? Diesel Engine Locomotives have been proven for decades, can we still not get a scaled down version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slegacy96 Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Subaru has two AWD systems. The VTD system used on the 6's and turbos is well proven. A lot of manufacturers are moving away from Haldex for various reasons and they offer no performance advantage over even the basic AWD system in use on 4 cyl Subarus. The SI-Drive equipped turbos are very competitive with other AWD crossovers. Acura, BMW, Mazda, and Mini have all brought new turbocharged models to the market. Subaru sales are at an all time high and you are driving one that is two generations old - and one that did not sell well at that. You are not the target market. A Lexus RX400h - about the size of a Tribeca - has an MSRP of over $42,000. That's beyond what folks are spending for any Subaru. No one knows what will happen to hybrid vehicles when the battery fails - estimated replacement costs are in the range of $10,000 and is likely an environmental nightmare. A used hybrid may prove to be the worst possible automotive purchase - one reason why they are expected to retain their 1% market share. A Subaru station wagon and an eBike make a whole lot more sense for most people. You realize that when I posted that 2 years ago, there was no such thing as SI drive. Youre right SOA sales are at a new record, but saying my generation didnt sell well? You are misinformed. How do you think Subaru got to where they are in America? I see BD/BGs all the time. I know two people at work who both have '96 Legacy L's. The sales influx began with the introduction of the Outback. And why wouldnt I be there target market? My Subaru is 8 years old and I m gonna have to get a new one eventually. I think they want to sell me another. Oh wait, they already did. Im still waiting on an Impreza TPH.:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slegacy96 Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Resurrection?! Why don't hybrids have a gas or even diesel engine and use electric to turn the wheels instead of the odd system they have? Diesel Engine Locomotives have been proven for decades, can we still not get a scaled down version? Opel made a diesel hybrid. Cost an added $4000 instead of $2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slegacy96 Posted February 3, 2007 Author Share Posted February 3, 2007 Just read about the Nissan Altima Hybrid in Road & Track. Toyota technology. 2.5L = 158, hybrid = 40 hp. So I guess you add those to together for net power, 198 hp. 0 - 60 in 6.8 seconds and 41 city, 36 hwy. Weight is up a bit, 3540 lbs. Price, less than the MSRP on my LGT, $26,000. Not bad. And that is nicely equipped. (ABS, 16 in alloys, dual climate control) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger83 Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 You realize that when I posted that 2 years ago, there was no such thing as SI drive. Youre right SOA sales are at a new record, but saying my generation didnt sell well? You are misinformed. How do you think Subaru got to where they are in America? I see BD/BGs all the time. I know two people at work who both have '96 Legacy L's. The sales influx began with the introduction of the Outback. And why wouldnt I be there target market? My Subaru is 8 years old and I m gonna have to get a new one eventually. I think they want to sell me another. Oh wait, they already did. Im still waiting on an Impreza TPH.:cool: Let me clarify - your Legacy GT model, basically a badge engineered Legacy with +1 wheels at the time, did not sell well. The Outback wagon was the best selling wagon in the USA in the late 90's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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