Looking at purchasing 1997 Legacy GT

[D-Cal]

Hey folks,

 

My daily driver just got stolen, and I'm looking at replacing it. We (the wife and I) have decided that a 4 door AWD car would be the best replacement, and after looking around some I've zeroed in on a few manufacturers, obviously Subaru among them. We live in the Canadian "outback" so AWD would be a bonus in winter weather.

 

I have located a 1997 Subaru Legacy GT. It's a black 5-speed car with 220K km on the clock (136K miles). It's loaded. They want $9995CDN ($8461US) for it. This is in central Alberta. Does that sound like a fair price, particularly in light of the high miles? I was thinking of offering $8000 and going as high as $8500CDN. I realize newer cars might have better equipment, but we're on a budget, $10K is about the limit and I don't mind doing my own repairs.

 

I haven't gone to see it yet, but intend to. What I'd like to know is what are the "look out for" things on these cars? I am an experienced home mechanic. Headgaskets, suspension rebuilds, I'm not really afraid of any kind of repair work. I have my own heated shop, tools, etc. I program my own (non-Subaru) ECMs as well. You know the kinds of warning signs I mean, the "if you see bubbles in the coolant, the headgasket is done", or "if it has an oil leak here, the clutch will get contaminated" sorts of warning signs.

 

I understand from reading this board and a few other places that the phase 1 2.5 motor has a headgasket problem. I read that if it requires a new HG, that replacing it with the latest revised version will forever cure the problem. If doing one HG makes the care otherwise good, I'm willing to do that. The brand of car I mostly deal with has a LOOONG history of headgasket problems and coolant burping issues, so they really don't scare me.

 

Any other weak points? Fatal rusty areas to check for?

 

One last question, is the 97 2.5 an interference motor? What's the recommended belt change frequency?

 

If there are some experienced Suby mechanics on here that could help me out, I'd appreciate it.

[murdoc158]

I just bought a 97 Legacy GT wagon M/T in Chicago a few weeks ago. I paid $3450 (USD). It has 143K miles, leather, CD, premium sound, keyless entry w/ alarm, AWD, black exterior with gray interior. The body looks pretty good. It was parked on the streets of Chicago it's entire life so it has some bumper scrapes and it looks like a few holes in the fender from a BB gun. I will be filling the holes in soon to prevent any rust. The car has a CEL on, for misfires in clyanders #1,2,3. I changed out the plugs and it didn't solve anything. I'm waiting on an O2 sensor and plug wires from the dealer. I checked the bluebook value and it was between $4300-$5400 in my condition, so I feel I got a nice deal on it.

 

As far as problems, just the headgasket is the main culprit. From my understanding, if you use the most recent headgasket from Subaru, it will cure the problem. Pop the coolant overflow cap while the car is still cold and check for exhaust or gas smell in the coolant. Also, bubbles in the coolant could point to HG failure as well. I talked to the dealer about this car and had him check the service history before I bought it. He said other than the headgasket (which was done on my car) he said the catalytic converter was the only "major" problem. If you don't have emissions or a smog test you can pretty much forget about this. Dealer told me 100,000 miles on the timing belt before changes.

 

I must say I knew nothing about Subaru H-4 motors before I bought my car. I have lots of experience with Japanese 4 cylander motors though, and once I actully looked the motor over, it is quite a simple design. The bottom of the motor has the exhaust, and will not require much work underneath. The top has the intake manifold, and looks fairly easy to pull off. There are not too many vacuum lines, or wiring to clutter things up. I've heard a headgasket job can be done with the motor still in the car. I think it may require you to jack the motor up just a bit though. I would recommend some kind of repair manual (Haynes, Chilton, eBay dealership CD-ROM), if you are going to attempt anything major like this. It looks pretty easy and straight forward to get the heads off, but putting them back on, with the timing belt and tensioners, can lead to problems if you don't have specific instructions. Plugs were a breeze with the correct tool setup, and were done in about 15 minutes.

 

Anyone else feel free to chime in if I have said something wrong, or if I missed anything. I hope this helps and let us know how the car checks out.

[benebob]

It does sound a little high but from my understanding Subarus (at least SVXs go for a premium in Canada). Is it at a dealer. If so it'll be a grand or so more. My wife loves her gt. I would make sure that 97s have the lsd rear (a real improvement over the standard open rear in snow)!!!

[idosubaru]

very high for around here, CA might be a different market.

doesn't sound like something to jump on. if it has the 2.5 liter motor i personally wouldn't get it unless it was a a really great deal (like thousands less than others). the only way i'd pay close to full price is if the head gasket can be verified to have been replaced. that mileage is no big deal for a subaru, but it is on the early 2.5 motors.

[D-Cal]

It does sound a little high but from my understanding Subarus (at least SVXs go for a premium in Canada). Is it at a dealer. If so it'll be a grand or so more. My wife loves her gt. I would make sure that 97s have the lsd rear (a real improvement over the standard open rear in snow)!!!

 

It is at a dealer, and it is possibly a "Canadian thing" because the snow has started to fly around here as of late. There is a real scarcity of AWD vehicles in the local Autotrader, so I am sure they are getting a premium for them. It's unfortunate that I have to hit the used car market at this time, but the goddamn thief didn't consult with me before stealing my car.

 

I will definitely not pay the $10K. I will have to see the car to decide where it sits from junk to nice. The next cheapest AWD car around here would be a newer used Scuby which goes for $15K or an A4 which goes for $15-19K. Not great choices really, the A4s have tons of problems I would rather avoid.

 

How would I visually identify that it has an LSD rear?

 

Thanks for the info so far guys.

[D-Cal]

if it has the 2.5 liter motor i personally wouldn't get it unless it was a a really great deal (like thousands less than others).

 

But if the only thing they suffer from is a leaky headgasket, I don't see that as a big problem. I have changed many headgaskets on cars that are worse to work on. If you told me they ate main bearings or something, I might sweat a little.

 

I'm not sure I could be happy with the apparently anemic 2.2 in a daily driver. I like a bit of zip in my cars.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

[idosubaru]

copy that. AWD soobs are easy to find around here, that's why i'd be picky. if you don't have that luxury and can swing the head gasket yourself then tear it up.

 

fortunately the headgaskets don't seem to *blow* in the traditional sense, more like they start a very slow leak that gets progressively worse. obviously they will blow in short order if you ignore your temp gauge and run it out of coolant. keep coolant in it and it won't blow.

[idosubaru]

oh on your original post...not sure on timing belt interval. the 97 2.2's have a 60,000 interval. the 2.5's have some confusion down here in the states. at one point there were *two belts* offered, one for california spec cars (105,000 miles intervals) and everything else was a 60,000 recommended replacement belt. all the 2.5 belts you buy now (at least for the newer soobs) are the 105,000 mile belt. even if you order a belt for a previously 60,000 mile replacement interval equipped vehicle you will get the upgraded part number belt that is a 105,000 mile replacement interval.

 

i'm not sure exactly what year motors this applies to though. it will be either 60,000 or 100,000 miles. if it's 60,000 miles then i'd look to have it done soon unless you can verify when it was done last. if it's the 100,000 mile variety then it's likely already been done relatively recently on this car you speak of. personally i'd like to have a look at it at least, timing belts are straight forward and simple enough (im' assuming you're in my boat since you consider head gaskets no problem), that you can go ahead and replace the belt. i'd want to replace the timing belt pulleys as well since they were likely not replaced even if the timing belt was. i actually repack the timing pulley bearings....i'm getting ready to post how to do that shortly.

[PetterFan]

That price seems a little high, but your in Canada. I bought a 97 GT with 125k miles for 5400. As you have read, the head gasket is the only major possible problem with the car. Mine was leaking oil from the block, so I had the head gasket and spark plug seals replaced, and so far, no more leak. It's a really great car in all weather. But because of the price, I would keep looking.

[HooptyGL]

did the 97 have the sohc or dohc in the 2.5?

 

-

neal

[Gnuman]

In '97, the EJ25 (2.5L was a DOHC engine, that had a problem with combustion chamber to coolant jacket headgasket leaks. The new (revised) headgasket will greatly reduce this problem, if not completely cure it. The DOHC design makes for a few problems on this engine:

1) the plugs are harder to get to due to the required positioning of them right next to a frame rail (I wanna "talk" to the engineer that thought that one up. . .)

2) timing belt changes are more dificult as you have two cam sprockets under tension, that you have to align with each other, and with the crank (the other two are not under tension, so not a problem)

3) you have to remove the camshafts in order to pull the heads when changing out the headgaskets, and the shim type of valve adjustment that Subaru uses on this engine is a royal PITA.

 

Personally, I think this is the worst engine that Subaru ever made. That, of course, means it is only three times as good as any other engine you will find, instead of the usual ten times better. . .

 

Given the market, I would take the Subaru, but try and talk them down a bit, and make them replace the timing belt for you with a CA spec one so you *know* when it is due. The '97 DOHC is an interference engine, and if the timing belt snaps on you, then you will be buying a new engine. .

[beezer]

The prices here in Ont. are much lower than that. I would probably wait and look for a better deal. A similiar car here sells for around $7000.00 cdn.

 

 

 

Beezer

[D-Cal]

Today I went and looked at the car at the dealership. They said they hadn't had a chance to do the mechanical inspection yet, so it sat pretty much as it was traded in. It's a one owner car, dealership serviced, and they had the full history of the car available (they showed me the print invoices for the last 200K). It has had every Subaru-scheduled service since new. He wasn't able to determine from the printouts when the timing belt was last done, or whether the head gaskets had been changed. I will call back Monday when the service dept. is open so they can get computer access to search.

 

No leaks in the engine bay that I could see. I checked before we started it, and after I had test driven it. There was what looked like an old coolant leak near where a line goes into the top passenger side of the motor, but it was old and dry. No wet spots under the car at all. Shoulda seen the look on the sales lady's face when I whipped out the flashlight and inspection mirror.

 

Body was in great shape. No rust that I could detect anywhere at all. The floors were in mint shape, and had been undercoated with some kind of grey fluffy-rubbery kind of stuff. The paint was good, no dents or door dings, but in need of a buff and wax job to bring it back up to new. One issue with it I will mention at the bottom in the questions. Exhaust looked original and in good shape. No serious rust at all.

 

We took it for a ride. Took 2 tries to start it, but it looked like it had been sitting for about a week in the cold, so no surprise. Fortunately there had been about an inch of fresh snow the night before. I found the pedals a bit too close together for a set of ski-feet like mine, but nothing I couldn't adjust to. Idled nice and smooth, no clanks, rattles or drama. I checked the oil, and while it looked to be a little overfilled, it was a nice golden color. No signs of coolant. Coolant looked to be free of oil.

 

Was a really fun drive. I regretted getting back into the rental Neon afterwards. I took it to a nice big wide private parking lot and tested the AWD and ABS out. The AWD was indeed impressive and fun (think I scared the sales lady a bit tho ). The ABS was kind of ... weird. I've only driven a few vehicles with first gen ABS, and none of them Subarus so it's hard for me to judge.

 

Holy cow that engine has a growl! Do all Subarus growl like that? The engine sound was very clear inside the passenger compartment, almost like there was no attempt at sound deadening. The sales lady indicated that the exhaust arrangement was the reason it was so clearly audible. Not complaining, I like the sound, just wondering if that was normal or if I should be looking for exhaust holes.

 

Interior was nice, no rips in the upholstery, stains, funny smells or anything at all. Rear seats had plenty of space for carting my elderly parents around when they come to visit. Stereo sounded nice, in fact it had a JBL sub woofer mounted in the truck. Is that a factory option? The head unit was stock Subaru. It was equipped with some kind of autostart.

 

When we went back to the dealership, we talked about the car for a bit. She said that they had yet to do the mechanical inspection that all used cars get before they go out. When we talked about the timing belt and head gaskets, she said that if the car was due for them they would be done before it left the dealership. It would be completely caught up to Subaru service schedules. I asked her if it was their policy to repair all defects in used cars before selling them, she assured me it was so. It will definitely be getting a new windshield because local safety requirements say that it must be unblemished to pass. I'm not used to this kind of treatment! The cars I buy are usually "as is".

 

So it seems like a really well cared for Scuby. We talked about the price, and she indicated that it was open to negotiation. She was pretty straightforward in that she said I could expect to pay about what I would in a private sale plus about $2500CDN because that's their standard markup. If the car comes with all mechanical issues fixed, I can't begrudge them a little extra. It's worth it for such a nice specimen.

 

So... sorry for the novel, but I have some questions:

 

I noticed the rocker panels on the bottom of both doors had really rough orange peel to the paint. I knocked on both and it didn't feel or sound like bondo. Are Scubys prone to rusting out the bottoms of the doors? Or do they apply some kind of chip guard down there? All four doors had exactly the same texture below the middle trim, so it looks too regular to be a poor repair.

 

The manual shifter was receiving a lot of vibration when I revved the car up. Is this normal? I have a ring with a loose setting, and the vibration was strong enough to make the stone "buzz" whenever the ring was in contact with the shifter. Is this a sign of clutch going out? Bad transmission mount perhaps? I drive FWD cars where the shifter is isolated by cables, so I'm not sure how much vibration a shifter attached to the transmission should receive. She said it would get looked at by the service department, and if it needed a new clutch or mount it would get one.

 

As I said, the ABS felt... weird. I'm used to a regular "thump thump thump" feel... this was like periods of no action, separated by a VERY rapid up-down pulsation, then nothing again... alternating as long as the car was sliding. Is that normal for a Scuby? The ABS light was not lit, and the brake fluid was full.

 

Thanks a lot for the help and information guys, hopefully a new Scuby owner is born. Both my wife and I really really liked this car and had a great experience with this dealer. We compared notes afterward, and honestly it felt like we were buying a new car, not a used almost ten year old car. They were really decent to us, something we're not used to.

[murdoc158]

The car sounds like its in really good shape. I would probably jump on it. My GT's engine has a mean growl above 3,000 RPM. I also was a little put-off by this the first time I drove it. I'm used to shifting closer to 4-5,000 RPM in my M3 or the wife's Copper S.

 

The subwoofer sounds aftermarket. The factory subwoffer is a powered unit under the drivers seat. It makes you want to listen to music with a nice bassline thats for sure.

 

My shifter shakes a bit to at idle and when driving. It is a top-loaded shifter, so this is not uncommon.

 

As for the ABS is sounds normal, and I experienced the same thing last night driving in 4 inches of fresh snow. The ABS will activate if the speed sensors send back different speeds for each wheel. So if your not sliding, all the wheels should be at the same speed. My guess is you started sliding, caught traction, lost traction, and regained traction again.

 

Most, if not all newer Subarus have that "orange peel" on the rocker panels. I believe it acts as a chip guard, but I could be wrong. I've noticed the same "orange peel" on alot of newer cars, not just Subarus.

[D-Cal]

Awesome! Thanks very much for your insight. We're hoping the deal works out well with this car, we both really like it.

[PetterFan]

My ABS is the same way, and my engine has a nice growl after about 3500 RPM. Seems like this car is in good shape. If you can get the price down, it sounds like a really good deal.

[D-Cal]

Got some more info today from the service computer:

 

At 200K km: clutch replaced, brakes done front and back, struts replaced. $1300CDN worth of work

 

At 214K: All fluids replaced.

 

Car has 228K km.

 

Timing belt is due for replacement, dealer is going to do it before releasing car. It will possibly get looked by the service tech who deals with used cars today or tomorrow.

[D-Cal]

Bought the car last night. Got me a roo!

[Strakes]

Post a pic! We wanna see it!

[D-Cal]

Sure! This is the online ad pic.

 

The car is getting a new timing belt right now, and a trailer hitch added. I pick it up tomorrow. Most of the major wearables (brakes, struts, clutch, tires, fluids, belts) have been replaced on this car in the last 30K km, so it was an awesome deal.

 

Thanks for the interest. I'm really excited. This is a new brand/motor/drivetrain to me, can't wait to delve into boxer-ness and AWD.

 

It looks really sexy in black. They had the car inside and were detailing it when we looked at it the last time before signing the papers, I noticed the paint had a cool sort of purplish metallic tint when viewed under a strong light.

[D-Cal]

Incidentally, I found out exactly what the lumpiness on the rockers was. You know that "invisible bra" stuff they put on the noses of cars? Some kind of 3M polymer film? Same stuff. Car also has it on the nose.

[D-Cal]

...and here she is, in my driveway!

[Strakes]

Nice! Looks really nice in black.

[syphon]

Awesome car. Here's my black '98 Legacy GT (in Wagon form)

 

[1Subaru1]

That price is WAY too high. Check out autotrader.ca for Ontario Canada prices and you will find it's about twice the price we would pay here, especially in the Ottawa area. Heed the warnings about head gaskets, etc. you see on this forum and good luck!