WAMB00 Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Hi, my son recently bought a '97 Legacy 2.5 L from a used car dealer. I have no history on it. He put about 70 miles on it when it suddenly died and wouldn't start. Had it taken to repair shop and they found that the timing jumped 90 degrees. The belt did not break. The mechanic said we were lucky and there was no valve damage. He replaced the tensioner(s) re-timed and gave the car back to us. My son put about 30 miles on it when it died coming to a stop at a stop sign. Had it taken back to same mechanic and he said it jumped time again. Again no damage to valves but real concern as to why it is jumping time. Mechanic can't find anything. Appears that the engine had been worked on previously and belt was in like-new condition. 180K on it. Does anyone have any thoughts on why this timing belt has jumped time 2 times in less than 50 miles? Any help would be really appreciated... thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 I would make sure all the pulleys are there. Check and make sure the idler pulley on the bottom is there. Also make sure all the sprockets and pulleys are in good working condition. The mechanic should have checked this..... but who knows. Not sure why it would skip. At least for my '92, these belts are on there pretty tight. I would make sure this problem gets resolved before driving it anymore. Lucky twice, the third time........ could be bad. Beezer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svxpert Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 <<I would make sure all the pulleys are there. Check and make sure the idler pulley on the bottom is there. Also make sure all the sprockets and pulleys are in good working condition.>> the car won't start if ANY of the pulleys or tentioners are misisng. what I would do is find another mechanic. i think the timing jumping has something to do with the tentioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beezer Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 <<I would make sure all the pulleys are there. Check and make sure the idler pulley on the bottom is there. Also make sure all the sprockets and pulleys are in good working condition.>> the car won't start if ANY of the pulleys or tentioners are misisng. what I would do is find another mechanic. i think the timing jumping has something to do with the tentioner. I guess that makes sense when you think about it. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Sounds like the tensioner is shot. Since your already into this guy and this is warrenty probem, tell him to replace the tensioner. Usually when the timing belt goes it snaps or jumps a tooth, not an entire 90 degrees. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferret Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 3 thoughts here: Where is it jumping 90 degrees? I mean which pulley is the mechanic basing this on? Crankshaft only out by 90? Only 1 of the 4 camshafts? Tensioner, water pump and other pullies are not timed so they don't matter in this type of problem. What are the Cam and crank pullies like? Keyways (Woodruff keys) in place and not worn? Pullies on tight and in good condition? No play or drift as you apply torque to them? Other thought is there is a small number of 2.5L DOHC that have had a camshaft bearing seizing problem. If only 1 camshaft is consistantly out, this is where I would start looking. After thought...is this a manual transmission, If so there is a 'keeper' that fits around the top edge of the crank pulley. Sort of a guide to help stop the belt from jumping teeth as with a manual tranny can you can abrupty stop or slow the crankshaft since you are directly connected to the drivetrain thru the clutch. The camshafts still have inertia driving them so there is additional tension on the belt and Subaru added this to the 2.5L and late 2.2L to prevent this from happening. end of my initial thoughts on this.....my $.02 P.S. Say hello to Lake Winola for me...spent some summers there and at Harvey's Lake as I grew up in W-B... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 After thought...is this a manual transmission, If so there is a 'keeper' that fits around the top edge of the crank pulley. Sort of a guide to help stop the belt from jumping teeth as with a manual tranny can you can abrupty stop or slow the crankshaft since you are directly connected to the drivetrain thru the clutch. The camshafts still have inertia driving them so there is additional tension on the belt and Subaru added this to the 2.5L and late 2.2L to prevent this from happening.. BINGO. That tensioner was probably damaged by re-using it. They cant be pressed back and re-pinned as easily as the old ones, and if he did it in a vise it damages it internally. The re-use has to be done very gently and slowly and not horizantally like you would in a vise it has to be done in a press so you can monitor that its not going in crooked or anything. Ask that he get a BRAND NEW tensioner from the dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumpy Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 I don't have any experience with the 2.5 motors but understand they are a 2.2 bored out with DOHC's. I have had troubles with a 2.2 jumping 90 degrees out on the crank sprocket. Even the local Subie shop missed the problem. Turned out to be one of the idler pulleys missing almost half the bearings. Nabbed one off my parts motor and back in business. The shop reinbursed me for the full amount of their bill with out me even asking!! Don't see that every much these days. For what it's worth, Stumpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hondasucks Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 This happened on my Honda when I got it, why it wouldnt;' run for the guy who gave it to me. Turned out that it was the tensioner, and the tensioner itself wasnt' bad, just it wasn't installed correctly. There is a pin on one side of the tensioner that it pivots on, and on the other side is a spring that sets the tension, and a bolt to tighten it down. Previous person who did a T belt didn't get it on the pin, so it lost tension. So yeah, check the tensioner :-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 What I'm wondering is how an EJ25 can have "jumped timing" and have no valve damage? These are so sensitive to timing issues that if the timing belt is off by 3 teeth, it's already jumped time and you'll have internal damage of some kind. While I agree with the hydraulic tensioner probably being the culprit, if the engine is undamaged, he's really, really lucky. Another possibility is a cam trying to seize. That's common too. Incidentally, the EJ25 isn't exactly a bored out EJ22. The blocks are nearly identical, but the cylinder castings are simply made bigger. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svxpert Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 <<That tensioner was probably damaged by re-using it. They cant be pressed back and re-pinned as easily as the old ones, and if he did it in a vise it damages it internally. The re-use has to be done very gently and slowly and not horizantally like you would in a vise it has to be done in a press so you can monitor that its not going in crooked or anything.>> i agree you have to press it gently, but it doesn't matter horizontal or vertical. i have always re-used the tentioner as long as its not leaking (i have never seen one leak). these tentioners are the same ones subaru have been using since the 2.2. i believe there used in the 2.0 also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAMB00 Posted December 10, 2005 Author Share Posted December 10, 2005 Wow! Thanks for all the replies. Regarding which sprocket was jumping- it's the crankshaft. The 4 cam sprocket timing marks all line up. I was able to check this one myself before getting a mechanic the 1st time. I would have dug a little deeper if it were summertime or I had a garage... Pennsylvania temps in December take the fun out of the job. I'll take this info to the mechanic and see what he says. He was recommended to me as being a good experienced subaru guy and I hope he's open-minded regarding some advice. I hope it turns out to be an idler or tensioner. The camshaft trying to seize up doesn't sound good. I'll post again when I find out anything new. Ferret, funny to see a old local reply- small world? I spent a little time at the lakes, but most of my younger days were on the river. Thanks Everyone for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 What I'm wondering is how an EJ25 can have "jumped timing" and have no valve damage? These are so sensitive to timing issues that if the timing belt is off by 3 teeth, it's already jumped time and you'll have internal damage of some kind. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com i think its called sheer dumb luck that hes escaped damage nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 These are so sensitive to timing issues that if the timing belt is off by 3 teeth, it's already jumped time and you'll have internal damage of some kind.I have no problem with defining "jumped timing" as any pulley in the system being off by as little as ONE tooth in either direction. I can't seem to find anything in the manual that indicates a two tooth negotiability in the belt installation. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 10, 2005 Share Posted December 10, 2005 ive seen it here at one tooth off the car wont start nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 I guess you might consider the difference as being "off" time and "jumped" time. But, point taken. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz Posted December 11, 2005 Share Posted December 11, 2005 I guess you might consider the difference as being "off" time and "jumped" time. But, point taken. Emily http://www.ccrengines.com I'm drawn to any incongruence of colors or logic, then I just instinctively twist it harder. Call it a weakness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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