Oversteer and Wobble

[Chef]

I am tired of my ongoing handling issues. I had the air suspension and swapped in used springs and new struts in the rear. Somewhat used struts in front. Seem to have lots of dampening left when hitting bumps and whatnot. Before swap ride was crap but solid (more or less). Afterwards, problems (listed below). Replacing my balljoints tightened up my steering and helped stabilise things a lot, and I know I need an alignment pronto, but I can't help but think there might be something else.

 

Symptoms:

 

Oversteer! Feels like I'm diving into turn WAY too much, and corrections on the highway seem to over-correct. I accidently caught the edge of the road today (snow over everything!) and when I pulled back to the left it way over compensated and I nealry ended up in the next lane. Pulling back to the right offered the same response. A bit scary.

 

Difficulty tracking straight. Seems to want to wander slightly, and the oversteer makes corrections annoying.

 

Now this alone I'd chock up to bad alignment. But two things. One is that as far as I can tell, it would be mostly a toe issue. But my tie-rods have not been adjusted since I've owned the car. Would replacing the air with the regular suspension change the way the toe moves in?

 

Secondly, front-end wobble - when moving the wheel back and forth quickly while driving at highway speeds, the front end seems to wobble back and forth afterwards for a second. The wobble seems to indicate something it not quite tight or is worn.

 

Checked tie-rods - no excessive play. OUters may be a little flexible, but no play in them. inners tight.

 

Wheel bearings - seem fine, no drone, pulling out on the wheel shows no play.

 

Springs seems strong, cannot twist them with weight on them. If I grad a couple of loops with my hand, I can just slightly pinch them together, but it doesn't loosen the spring.

 

CV shafts (front) new. No problems there.

 

Sway bar tight.

 

Nothing seems bent or out of shape.

 

I want to get an alignment, but feel there is little point if I need to fix something else first. Lifetime alignments are not available here. On a fixed budget.

 

Suggestions? If it is just the alignment, then what would be the issue most likely? I just don't trust any mechanic I've ever met.

 

Thanks folks!

[tunered]

im betting that when you changed struts you raised the car some and created more positive camber[thats when the tires tilt out on top looking from the front of the car]this will cause your issues,also toe more than likley went more toe in.

[Setright]

Having replaced those parts, I would strongly recommend an alignment.

 

Oversteer could be from not enough negative camber at the rear (should be -1.0) or too much at the front (between 0.0 and -0.25).

 

Wobble is likely to be a toe problem.

 

 

Sorry to be the bearer of expensive news, but you need a four wheel alignment.

[nipper]

I see absolutly nothng about checking ball joints, i would start there as these are all classic bad ball joint symptons. a 4 wheel alignment wouidnt solve alot of his issues.

 

 

 

nipper

[cookie]

A bit frustrating becuase one can't see or feel anything. In this case you have violated at least a couple of the usual rules. First never mix shocks and second remove all play and align a car after any major work.

If I was young and low on cash I would try to align the car using old basic methods like tape measures and string. If I had nothing I would loosen the tie rods a turn at a time to spread the toe until I could drive it. Once in a while lowering tire pressure can help to make a diver driveable. Make sure the rear is not higher than the front as that ruins caster.

[Chef]

I see absolutly nothng about checking ball joints, i would start there as these are all classic bad ball joint symptons. a 4 wheel alignment wouidnt solve alot of his issues.nipper

 

I did replace the balljoints just two weeks ago, helped a lot, but still minor but persistant issues.

 

I know I need an alignment - I have one booked later this week. I just wanted to clear my bases first to make sure there is nothing else before I drop $75+ tax for a 4 wheel alignment. I know the mixing of struts is not a great idea, but I have little choice. I plan to replace them eventually, but they seem to be fine for now.

 

Oversteer could be from not enough negative camber at the rear (should be -1.0) or too much at the front (between 0.0 and -0.25).

 

Far as I know the rear camber is not really adjustable, and if out, is probably a sign of worn/damaged parts (e.g. trailing arm, control arm). Nothing looks damaged to me there.

 

 

Which brings me to my other question. What alignment settings should I get? I travel largely on the highway, usually at mostly legal speeds. I like it to corner well, but not such that affects straight line driveability.

 

I was thinking:

 

front: -0.25 to -0.5° camber, 1/8 toe in

Rear: 0 toe

 

Or will this be too aggressive?

[cookie]

A good local place will know what is needed. Nobody here is running with the same road crown as you are except perhaps for some Canadians nearby. Don't go to an idiot. This may just be a waste of money.

[Chef]

A good local place will know what is needed. Nobody here is running with the same road crown as you are except perhaps for some Canadians nearby. Don't go to an idiot. This may just be a waste of money.

 

Yeah, roads get pretty snowy around here and it's nice to have it melt/blow off instead of accumulating (which it does anyways). Been a pretty warm winter here, so lots of wet snow and slush. Makes me glad to have the soob!

 

I now live in a small city of ~75 000 (near to Toronto, going there tomorrow for work). There is a local shop here that is dedicated to alignments and wheel balancing, and the guys there seem pretty good. I'll ask them what they think thursday morning when I go.

 

Thanks

[tunered]

Yeah, roads get pretty snowy around here and it's nice to have it melt/blow off instead of accumulating (which it does anyways). Been a pretty warm winter here, so lots of wet snow and slush. Makes me glad to have the soob!

 

I now live in a small city of ~75 000 (near to Toronto, going there tomorrow for work). There is a local shop here that is dedicated to alignments and wheel balancing, and the guys there seem pretty good. I'll ask them what they think thursday morning when I go.

 

Thanks

forgot to mention that when you go in for the alingment have your gas tank filled to at least 1/2 full,and if you carry anything heavy with you while you drive leave it in the car too. let us know how it works out.

[nipper]

forgot to mention that when you go in for the alingment have your gas tank filled to at least 1/2 full,and if you carry anything heavy with you while you drive leave it in the car too. let us know how it works out.

 

also if your er umm er... Volumetrically challanged or if one of your regular passengers are you have to compensate for that too

[idosubaru]

steering rack bushings will cause a very weird *swaying* feeling. turn and a slighty delay or over turn and wobble type feeling like you're describing.

 

i'd look into replacing your steering rack bushings.

 

alignments are fine and dandy but i've swapped tons of front end suspension parts and never needed to do one and i drive a ton of miles. i just posted about my 200,000 miles of never getting an alignment here:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=52599

 

when one of my tires starts to wear unevenly i'll get an alignment, until then i'm not doing it. my tires have always worn perfectly even. i even installed the last set on my wheels myself, the more i keep my car out of a shop the better.

 

i'm not saying they are bad just that when i was in college i never got an alignment and since then i've kept up the habit since i've never had a need for it. furthermore i have had my entire front end apart and parted out a couple soobs and haven't even noticed where they could make any adjustments anyway? what do they move?

[Setright]

Toe is adjustable all the way round. Rear end, on the sub-assembly end of the control arm, so in theory you can replace struts without needing alignment.

 

Front toe is adjusted via the tie-rods. Camber is done on the top hub/strut bolt.

 

I rear camber is out, you can replace the top hub bolt back there with a lop-sided one like on the front and allow some adjustment.

 

 

I think 0.0 toe all round is the best.

 

-0.5 camber on the front has given my Impreza very direct handling, with zero understeer. However, my car doesn't have a sway bar at the rear. That is why I would suggest -0.25 on your car chef, -0.5 could make it twitchy.

[Chef]

your er umm er... Volumetrically challanged or if one of your regular passengers are you have to compensate for that too

 

Well, while I have put on a couple of extra pounds recently, I don't think I'm anywhere near this being a problem.

 

steering rack bushings will cause a very weird *swaying* feeling. turn and a slighty delay or over turn and wobble type feeling like you're describing.

 

i'd look into replacing your steering rack bushings.

 

alignments are fine and dandy but i've swapped tons of front end suspension parts and never needed to do one and i drive a ton of miles. i just posted about my 200,000 miles of never getting an alignment here:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=52599

 

when one of my tires starts to wear unevenly i'll get an alignment, until then i'm not doing it. my tires have always worn perfectly even. i even installed the last set on my wheels myself, the more i keep my car out of a shop the better.

 

i'm not saying they are bad just that when i was in college i never got an alignment and since then i've kept up the habit since i've never had a need for it. furthermore i have had my entire front end apart and parted out a couple soobs and haven't even noticed where they could make any adjustments anyway? what do they move?

 

This is good advice Gary, but I have definitely noted cupping on the outside edge of my tires. I moved those to the back for now, but want to prevent further problems with that.

 

I will check into replacing those bushings. Likely worn I'm sure!

 

I swear this is so frustrating, because sometimes it seems to drive nearly perfectly fine, other times terribly. Especially with crosswinds, these knock me around like a plastic bag in the wind.

 

I find pushing on the side of the car seems to make it wobble too. In comparison to my co-worker's honda civic, it was like a teeter-totter. I tried grabbing and pulling the wheels both while on the ground and otherwise, and it shakes the whole car in the same way, but there is no play on the wheels and/or any suspension parts.

 

I dunno, maybe it is the front struts. I'll replace them eventually, but I need to put some serious money down on student loans and my university directly.

[Chef]

Oh hell, I think it probably just is the front struts. I suppose the sign are consistent with this. If I get an alignment and find that it still behaves badly, I'll be pissed for spending the money. I just didn't want to wait to order struts and find time to install them (damn cold now, and no heated garage here).

 

Sigh, I hate mucking around with this stuff. If I didn't have to drive so much every day I wouldn't care so much, but I need my car for work.

[cookie]

I'm sure you checked to see if there was any play in the steering anyway right? That joint on the shaft is famous. Good luck big guy!

[Chef]

I'm sure you checked to see if there was any play in the steering anyway right? That joint on the shaft is famous. Good luck big guy!

 

Yeah, the ujoint(s) seems sturdy, and the wheels respond wiht no delay to turning the wheel.

 

Well, I went out and got the alingment anyways. It definitely tracks MUCH better now. Turns out the FR wheel had a full degree of positive camber, and the other nearly 1 degree of negative camber. WTF!?

 

He also adjusted toe front and rear, but the rear was pretty much fine.

 

So the wheel now sits flush for the first time! Nice. I didn't even mention the wheel was out of alignment. to me, a good sign they did their job well. No more oversteer, more responsive, no pulling to the right anymore.

 

But...

 

It definitely has some issues still, and struts are most likely the main culprit. Still gets pushed around by crosswinds badly, but now it's easier to correct the problem. Long grooves on the road still pull at the wheels a bit, and still feels wobbly (if I move the wheel back and forth on the highway, the car wobbles like a jack in the box). I swear, those new rear struts are also being a pain. Hitting bumps seems overly harsh, even with the rear. I know those wagon springs are stiff, but yeesh.

 

So I will save some bucks, get some GR-2s for the front, and swap when I get the chance. I have access to an electric impact wrench at work, so this should helps things. Hopefully I can maintain those camber settings...

[tunered]

chef, i had a set of goodyears that felt the same way,mushy steering responce and moved around alot in the wind, it was like driving on ballons. why dont you pump up the tires to maybe 35lbs and stiffen the sidewall and take a little drive,it will be a harsher ride on rough road but you will be able to tell if it is in the tires. i have had cars that the struts were wore out 2 years before i got the car and they did not drive all that bad on good road. just a thought .

[Chef]

chef, i had a set of goodyears that felt the same way,mushy steering responce and moved around alot in the wind, it was like driving on ballons. why dont you pump up the tires to maybe 35lbs and stiffen the sidewall and take a little drive,it will be a harsher ride on rough road but you will be able to tell if it is in the tires. i have had cars that the struts were wore out 2 years before i got the car and they did not drive all that bad on good road. just a thought .

 

I've considered the tires, but I alreayd have them at 35 psi - max for these tires. They are long life Hankooks, and before I swapped out my air suspension never seems to give me the trouble I'm having now. I suspect the problem is indeed eitehr the struts and/or worn bushings of some kind. But for now I will tolerate it, just keep my speed below 120 km/h. most (not all) wobble seems to happen above 110 km/h, faster than I ought to be going I suppose regardless.