rgibson4 Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 I have a 1997 Legacy Outback Limited; 2.5 engine. I noticed the coolant looked like it had rust in it. That concerned me since I replace the coolant roughly every 30,000 miles. I decided to flush the system with Prestone Cleaner and refill. As soon as I drove with the Prestone Cleaner in the system (they tell you to drive 3 - 6 hours), it overheated. Thinking I had an air bubble or forgot to tighten the cap, I drove it again the next day. Car ran fine for about a half hour, then BAM the temperature gauge went sky high. I've never experienced an overheat situation on this car before, so I thought it was the thermostat. I changed the thermostat and ran the car in the driveway for a half hour. No overheat, but I noticed air bubbles in the overflow tank. I'm wondering if this is the telltale sign of a head gasket problem that the engine is so well known for. I have 160,000 miles and the engine idles very smoothly. Any suggestions/thoughts/advice appreciated. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 Sigh .. well first thing first, never use a chemical flush anywhere in the engine, your just asking for trouble. Second, remove the radiator cap, start the car and look for bubbles in the coolant. My gut says you have joined the Head Gasket club, and at this mileag i would blame age over the typical original HG design issues. Another test is to go to an autoparts sotre and get the kit that checks for hydrocarbons in the exhaust. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subie Gal Posted August 26, 2006 Share Posted August 26, 2006 agreed. just get a hydracarbon test asap this will tell you right away if you've HG issues or not Jamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgibson4 Posted August 27, 2006 Author Share Posted August 27, 2006 Another test is to go to an autoparts sotre and get the kit that checks for hydrocarbons in the exhaust. Nipper So I go to NAPA and ask for what? Is it something I put in teh overflow to see if there's hydrocarbon in the water or does this test what's coming out of the tail pipe? Sorry, this is a new one on me. I'm used to Subarus that go 250,000 with minimal problems. Thanks. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgibson4 Posted August 27, 2006 Author Share Posted August 27, 2006 Jamie Like I asked Nipper, what do I ask for and can you tell me how to use it? Thanks. I really appreciate your help. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 [...]So I go to NAPA and ask for what? Is it something I put in teh overflow to see if there's hydrocarbon in the water or does this test what's coming out of the tail pipe?[...] "Block Tester", "Combustion Leak Tester", or "Combustion Leak Detector". The test is done at the radiator neck. A Google Web search came up with the following two links, among others: http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/head_gasket_or_combustion_leak_test.htm http://www.testtoolsinc.com/ You could do a search on Google's "Froogle" using the above terms and see what that turns up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 i've never had a problem but others have had very difficult problems getting the trapped air/air bubbles out of the coolant. i'd look thoroughly through this problem and read up some posts on "burping" the system as they call it. some have had multiple refill attempts not get all the air out. hate to see you overheat an engine just because of air. and at this mileag i would blame age over the typical original HG design issues. except that rarely, if ever do we see any 2.2engines with bad headgaskets even at 200,000+ miles. i have not seen any 2.2's for sale locally with a bad headgasket even ones with 200,000 miles (except beefed up turbo's, but they don't count!). see 2.5's at all sorts of mileages. there's one for sale locally right now for $1,300. i've never seen a 2.2 ever (eventhough they've been around much longer and have had many more chances of being overheated due to old age and bad radiators...the stats are in the favor of the 2.5 since they are newer overall, but they still blow way more). that doesn't really matter and ends up being a glass half empty/glass half full type of discussion. on to testing your motor..... be advised: the hydrocarbon test is not proof positive of whether you have a bad headgasket or not. i have seen first hand (and you can read it in other threads on this board) that the 2.5 is a very strange beast. a 2.5 with a bad headgasket can pass the hydrocarbon test. obviously if it fails that tells you something, but if it passes that doesn't mean anything. reading through the myriad of threads already existing on this topic may help you. there's TONS of information out there. i've seen a bad head gasket 2.5 pass compression, leak down and more than one hydrocarbon test. it can be difficult when they first start to nail them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgibson4 Posted August 27, 2006 Author Share Posted August 27, 2006 "Block Tester", "Combustion Leak Tester", or "Combustion Leak Detector". The test is done at the radiator neck. A Google Web search came up with the following two links, among others:http://www.arrowheadradiator.com/head_gasket_or_combustion_leak_test.htm http://www.testtoolsinc.com/ You could do a search on Google's "Froogle" using the above terms and see what that turns up. Thanks. I'll go find one tomorrow. More to come........... Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelbteam Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 I bought a lovely 99 Outback with 180 k miles for my daughter, ran fine. No overheating problems until we started driving up the canyon to Snowbird.[3000 vertical in 6 miles] Luckily my daughter was trained to watch the temp gauge and pulled over before redlining and turned around. I'm sure the seller of this car knew the problem, buyer beware! I was totally ignorant of the maddening 2.5 HG problems. Took it to a good radiator shop and they could not duplicate the situation in the shop, pronounced it fine which of course it was not. I figured it was a tiny leak which forced exhaust gases into the coolant but only under heavy load. Tried a good "stop leak" treatment, not good enough although I've heard of success with some treatments. Ended up driving it all winter as is. After every trip up the canyon I would add coolant, and every morning emptied the overflow tank back into the radiator, and recycled the same coolant all winter, driving 40 miles a day. Temp gauge never moved. Sold the car for $3 k [yes I told the buyer of the problem, don't need any more car karma!] and decided I want no part of that series engine after reading the great horror stories on the Forum. Have had great luck with our 2.2 Legacies and they are easy to work on. Since my daughter likes the Outback style better we found a great 95 Outback for $1750, had to reseal the oil pump and do the other up front maintenance. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 [...]Tried a good "stop leak" treatment, not good enough although I've heard of success with some treatments. The success stories with stop leak are apparently primarily with the 2.5l phase 2 engines (usually after MY '00, SOHC). Rather than developing internal HG leaks (combustion gases into coolant passages), the phase 2 seems to more commonly leak coolant to the outside. Since the pressure the stop leak has to deal with is only that of the cooling system (rather than the considerably higher cylinder pressures), it has a much better chance of working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgibson4 Posted September 17, 2006 Author Share Posted September 17, 2006 agreed. just get a hydracarbon test asap this will tell you right away if you've HG issues or not Jamie Jamie I appreciate all the help you and Nipper and other provided. After I changed the thermostat and refilled the system (doing my best to be sure I got the air out), everything seemed fine. But, not trusting "everything" I took it to my mechanic and asked him to check for HG leakage in the coolant. He ran the car for 45 min to an hour with a sniffer and got zero. So off I go and everything was roses until day before yesterday. I've driven several hundred miles under all conditions although most in the 50-80 range, with no problem. Yesterday after I came home from work (18 miles), we decided to go out. After about 5 miles I looked at the temperture gauge and it was off the scale. I got off the highway and checked...boiling coolant had overflowed from the tank and it was all over the engine. I let it cool overnight. The next morning, the engine had sucked all the coolant back plus I had to add another gallon. Mechanic couldn't find anything after driving it for 10-12 miles. We replaced the thermostat again. Is this classic head gasket? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Jamie I appreciate all the help you and Nipper and other provided. After I changed the thermostat and refilled the system (doing my best to be sure I got the air out), everything seemed fine. But, not trusting "everything" I took it to my mechanic and asked him to check for HG leakage in the coolant. He ran the car for 45 min to an hour with a sniffer and got zero. So off I go and everything was roses until day before yesterday. I've driven several hundred miles under all conditions although most in the 50-80 range, with no problem. Yesterday after I came home from work (18 miles), we decided to go out. After about 5 miles I looked at the temperture gauge and it was off the scale. I got off the highway and checked...boiling coolant had overflowed from the tank and it was all over the engine. I let it cool overnight. The next morning, the engine had sucked all the coolant back plus I had to add another gallon. Mechanic couldn't find anything after driving it for 10-12 miles. We replaced the thermostat again. Is this classic head gasket? Bob yes it is, as they can sometimes fail the HC test. You need to catch it while its happening, since that is when HC will be present. Try a leakdown test also. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I had success with the "Subaru coolant treatment” in my 2.2. While doing oil changes I noticed some coolant dripping from the timing belt cover. I added it in and 8K miles later it is fine. I have 160K on the 2.2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I had success with the "Subaru coolant treatment” in my 2.2. While doing oil changes I noticed some coolant dripping from the timing belt cover. I added it in and 8K miles later it is fine. I have 160K on the 2.2 Good to hear it helped someone. He has an internal leak. There is a new stop leak for HG that i saw the other day, but since no one has played lab rat yet, i wouldnt recomend it. Also i have the feeling its not for an engine you want to keep going for another 100K or more. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgibson4 Posted September 17, 2006 Author Share Posted September 17, 2006 yes it is, as they can sometimes fail the HC test. You need to catch it while its happening, since that is when HC will be present. Try a leakdown test also. nipper Nipper Thanks (I think). The idea of waiting until it happens in the middle of Timbuktu is not appealing. Guess I'll be driving local for awhile and hope it croaks while I'm near the repairman. If I have to go the new HG route, do you recommend I buy Subaru gaskets or can I go local auto parts? Thanks again. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Nipper Thanks (I think). The idea of waiting until it happens in the middle of Timbuktu is not appealing. Guess I'll be driving local for awhile and hope it croaks while I'm near the repairman. If I have to go the new HG route, do you recommend I buy Subaru gaskets or can I go local auto parts? Thanks again. Bob We generally recomend OE, since OE gets the design changes first, and your never sure if aftermarket has got the latest change. As much as i love felpro, go with OE. Also do an oil change, its cheap insurance. You never know how hot the oil got, and with a small pan, it doesnt hurt to change it. nipper nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 My car only takes 4.2 quarts. That really does not seem like much oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arracado Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Dropped my 97 OBW off at the shop today to have the HG and timing belt done, along with any seals that may need replacing. I feel pretty good about it...the car runs beautifully and I'm sure we'll hang on to it for at least a couple more years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 How much for that job? 2,200 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 How much for that job? 2,200 i guess 1400 nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arracado Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Yes I was told between $1200 and $1500, with $1500 being in the event of something untoward in the engine, which I'm not expecting since the car's always run beautifully, especially for 140k miles. I'll post when it's all done what it cost me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Yes I was told between $1200 and $1500, with $1500 being in the event of something untoward in the engine, which I'm not expecting since the car's always run beautifully, especially for 140k miles. I'll post when it's all done what it cost me. so if i remember correctly i win whats in the showcase? nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Prices seem really reasonable up there. I've said before that for major work it would pay a Californian to drive up there and for the same money get a vacation too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgibson4 Posted September 23, 2006 Author Share Posted September 23, 2006 We generally recomend OE, since OE gets the design changes first, and your never sure if aftermarket has got the latest change. As much as i love felpro, go with OE. Also do an oil change, its cheap insurance. You never know how hot the oil got, and with a small pan, it doesnt hurt to change it. nipper nipper Nipper Amazingly, I finally got the head gasket to leak for my mechanic. Interrmittant is an understatement. I'm having them replaced with Subaru OE. Based on experience, can I expect to run another 150,000 without doing this again, or is it a recurring problem. Mega thanks again for staying with me. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 23, 2006 Share Posted September 23, 2006 Nipper Amazingly, I finally got the head gasket to leak for my mechanic. Interrmittant is an understatement. I'm having them replaced with Subaru OE. Based on experience, can I expect to run another 150,000 without doing this again, or is it a recurring problem. Mega thanks again for staying with me. Bob more like you can run forever as long as you dont overheat the car. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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