'96 Legacy 2.2 hot (non)starting issue

[b1pig]

Hello, all.

 

I came accross a link to this forum on the cartalk.com forums while searching for stuff related to the issue I'mhaving with the wife's Legacy.

 

We bought a used '96 Legacy L wagon, 2.2 AWD auto. Nice car. Really great shape. Right after we got it, the knock sensor code came up. I held off on replacing it due to the cost. 2 weeks after we bought it, I drove it out of town. The temp was in the high 90's in Central Georgia. The car began having an intermittent hot-starting issue. After driving a short distance and parking the car for 10-30 minutes, when I tried to leave, the engine would spin over but not fire up.

 

The first time it did it, it took two or three tries, then it fired up. No problem outside that. The next day, it did it again. That time, it took 5 or 6 tries before it fired up. The day AFTER that... it took about 15 minutes.

 

All those times, I had no tools, no multimeter, no shop manual and no helping hands. When I got back home, I posted about this on several Subie forums. The unanimous observation was to replace the temp sender. I replaced the temp sender for the computer (not gauge) and the knock sensor at the same time. Cleared the knock sensor code and it ran great. Within a week it did it to the wife. Took 5 minutes to get it fired up. She told me about it. The next day, it did it again, and she sat with it for 15 minutes and called me on the cell phone. It finally fired up while she was on the phone with me and she drove it home. She has since barely driven the car and instead drove the Tahoe. (gulp, gulp...)

 

Anyway.... it is so intermittent that it does it when I have no way to troubleshoot the thing. All I do know is that the last time it did it to me, when it finally fired up, it sputtered as if it was just getting fuel. Otherwise, I have no further info. New knock sensor, new temp sender for the computer. (in coolant tube, right rear under intake)

 

'scuse me for the looooong explanation...

[Manarius]

Crank position sensor?

[BigMattyD]

I had the same symptoms, and had to replace the crankshaft position sensor. It is located just above the oil pump, you probably have to move the alternator to get to it easily.

 

matt d

[delli50]

i have he exact same car and solved the exact same problem. while my problem could have been the crank position sensor, mine was the cam position sensor. change both and solve your problem and enjoy your car.

i got both oem from a dealer online for under $50.00.

 

regards,

 

mark

[idosubaru]

check the battery terminals as well. corroded or loose connections at the battery can cause intermittent issues as well. easy to check. the terminals and connectors should be spotless and tight, you should not be able to turn the connectors by hand.

 

then i'd look into the sensors they mentioned above.

 

i'd be very surprised if one of those didn't solve your problem, but if they didn't i'd start suspecting the starter itself. tapping it with a hammer may temporarily help it along and prove it's causing issues. places like autozone and advance can test your starter, if it's bad it'll show on their tester.

[nipper]

What they said

 

 

nipper

[frag]

Since it's a hot engine starting issue, if nothing else works, check the coolant temps sensor it might be telling the ECU that the engine is cold when in fact it is hot and flooding it.

[Manarius]

Since it's a hot engine starting issue, if nothing else works, check the coolant temps sensor it might be telling the ECU that the engine is cold when in fact it is hot and flooding it.

When I got back home, I posted about this on several Subie forums. The unanimous observation was to replace the temp sender. I replaced the temp sender for the computer (not gauge) and the knock sensor at the same time.

^^^^^^

[BigMattyD]

Yes, the cam and crank sensors are very similar in operation and failure modes. They tend to fail when hot and work fine when cold. I never had one quit while I was driving, either. Only at startup with a warm engine. And there's nothing you can do but wait for it to come back to normal. It will probably continue to get worse, mine did. If you want help finding/ fixing these sensors, let us know. There is a lot of experience here.

 

Matt D

[cookie]

I've always kind of wondered what tends to zap these things. A few times now I've heard fo somebody losing multiple sensors and I sort of wonder if it caomes from a high voltage event. Jumping the car, a bad alternator, or a lightnig stirke would probably do it.

[RedmondRunner]

I've got a '94 Turbo (144K miles) which has just started exhibiting this problem. I've been lucky to have had it happen three times where I was able to try some stuff. On the advice of my local indie I pulled a plug wire to check for spark (screw driver from plug socket to block). On each occasion the car started immediately! On the '94 and earlier Legacys the cam/crank sensors are a bloody fortune (more like $200/$300)!

 

Anyone have any idea why removing a plug wire (this happened to be #1) could affect this?

[delli50]

i have he exact same car and solved the exact same problem. while my problem could have been the crank position sensor, mine was the cam position sensor. change both and solve your problem and enjoy your car.

i got both oem from a dealer online for under $50.00.

 

regards,

 

mark

 

when i had this problem, and my 17 year old daughter had the car. i gave her a bottle of water and told her that if it wouldn't start to douse the cam and crank ange sensors with water to cool them off and try again. always worked for her and she got to know the location of these 2 sensors.

might be worth a try for you. you might be able to isolate your problem....but i would replace both sensors anyway.

 

regards,

 

mark

[frag]

^^^^^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by frag

Since it's a hot engine starting issue, if nothing else works, check the coolant temps sensor it might be telling the ECU that the engine is cold when in fact it is hot and flooding it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1pig

When I got back home, I posted about this on several Subie forums. The unanimous observation was to replace the temp sender. I replaced the temp sender for the computer (not gauge) and the knock sensor at the same time.

^^^^^^

Read this not as "mad" but as "red faced".

That's what happens when you read too fast.

[BigMattyD]

Trying to cool the sensors is probably a good idea, since it tends to be an issue when hot. Since in your experience it worked well, I guess I would recommend it as a temporary solution. Of course who knows if the sensor will fail completely or if the water may cause a short circuit.

 

If the engine is warm, however, any water should evaporate quickly.

 

I would try it if desperate.

 

Matt D

[nipper]

They are fairly robust, but let me tell you a story of early VW and Porcshe fuel injection. These were some of the first cars with EFI. For some unknown reason the ECU would fail. There was no rhym or reason to it. Somehow somone had a eureka moment. It turned out that when conditions were right, microwave towers would fry the units. Sheilding was a fairly new concept to the automotive industry, as well as electronics.

So yes on the odd occasion, static eletricity can tek them out. Enviormental conditions can take out a compromised sensor. A powered sensor can take out non powered sensors. Electricity can be weird, and doesnt alwat read the textbooks.

 

nipper

[b1pig]

i appreciate the strong response, guys. I have been on the Jeep Scene for several years, and the Crank Position Sensor on the Jeeps tend to fail while running. I have been eye-balling the CPS for a while...

 

dousing with water is a nice idea. I'll look into it.

Thanks!

[cookie]

Some folks test with a cooling agent.

[b1pig]

when i had this problem, and my 17 year old daughter had the car. i gave her a bottle of water and told her that if it wouldn't start to douse the cam and crank ange sensors with water to cool them off and try again. always worked for her and she got to know the location of these 2 sensors.

 

Thanks, Mark.

The wife drove the Subie to the store the other day. again, it did it. she got a cup of water from the store, but before dumping the water on the CPS, she popped the hood and tried to fire the car up. when it didnt start, she poured the water onto the front of the engine at the crank position sensor. when she got back to her seat and hit the starter, it fired right up.

[BigMattyD]

Now get out there and replace it!!!

 

good job on the H2O trick.

 

thumbs up to your wife who knew where the CPS was.

 

 

matt

[nipper]

Thanks, Mark.

The wife drove the Subie to the store the other day. again, it did it. she got a cup of water from the store, but before dumping the water on the CPS, she popped the hood and tried to fire the car up. when it didnt start, she poured the water onto the front of the engine at the crank position sensor. when she got back to her seat and hit the starter, it fired right up.

 

way cool

 

nipper

[b1pig]

i ordered the part at the parts store.... gotta wait for it to come in.

 

till then, i get to put the Jeep back together after tearing it up in Moab, Utah, last week.... maaan was THAT fun.

[johnceggleston]

Thanks, Mark.

The wife drove the Subie to the store the other day. again, it did it. she got a cup of water from the store, but before dumping the water on the CPS, she popped the hood and tried to fire the car up. when it didnt start, she poured the water onto the front of the engine at the crank position sensor. when she got back to her seat and hit the starter, it fired right up.

 

this is better than giving her a cell phone so she can call for help. i whish we had more of thses so i could fill up my tool box.

[b1pig]

update:

 

I wanted to get some wheel time in before I posted this. The wife and I went out and replaced the Crank Position Sensor about a month ago. We've gotten maybe 300 miles on it since, with no hint of the no-start issue.

 

It seems that the suggestion of the CPS was the cure for mine.

 

Thanks, guys!

[scmods3]

Yes, the cam and crank sensors are very similar in operation and failure modes. They tend to fail when hot and work fine when cold. I never had one quit while I was driving, either. Only at startup with a warm engine. And there's nothing you can do but wait for it to come back to normal. It will probably continue to get worse, mine did. If you want help finding/ fixing these sensors, let us know. There is a lot of experience here.

 

Matt D

 

I just signed up for this forum tonight in hopes that I could troubleshoot and solve this problem. You seem to be the answer to my questions. My 95 legacy L has had similar problems. It is winter and cold here in Colorado, but the problem only exists when the engine is hot. i am taking you up on your offer to help finding/fixing these sensors. Where are they, and how do you determine if they are bad? What does it take to replace them? Where can I buy replacements?

 

Reed

[EVOthis]

the cam sensor is located at the left cylinder head (almost directly below the oil fill tube and behind the timing cover). The crank sensor is right below the alternator and sort of behind the Harmonic Balancer/Crank Pulley. You could test the resistance of both of them with an ohm meter and make sure they are in specs.....also you shouldnt have any spark when either of them fails. both are quite simple to replace...unplug connector and unbolt....I know where i am you can get them from NAPA, but as always any Subaru dealer will work.