hatchsub Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Hey everyone. My 83 sedan is acting up. It was giving me a bit of problems with the starter before i did an auto to manual swap on it but i didnt really pay attention. Opps. Well when i finished the swap i put the original starter back in and it started to act up on me again. It would just give me one click then nothing. If i bang on it with a hammer it starts though. So my mechanic told me the contacts go bad in them and i should replace them. Sure enough when i open it the contacts are worn down. So i replace them only to have it happen again. So i pull the starter again figuring that i messed up the contacts somehow and didnt line them up. They were a bit off (as in one side was higher than the other) so i fixed that and put it back together. This happened to me two more times before i gave up on this starter and put the manual starter in that i had snagged from the Junkyard. I replaced one of the contacts in it cause it was worn down pretty far and when i went to fire the car up it started faster and easier than it had with the auto starter. So i figured the problem was solved. Well tonight it did it again to me. Is there something im missing here. Or did i just get two crappy starters? Is some wiring the cause of this problem since i went from auto to manual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Have you checked the battery cables? I've had poor cables cause similar results. The stock cables are aluminium and get nasty after a few years. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[HTi]Johnson Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 could it be his ignition switch? You may have to jump the starter by putting a push button in. That's what the prior owner did with my old EA81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Yeah - it could be, but that usaully happens with EA82's, and his sucess with hammering on the starter makes me discount that possiblity further. Could also be his inhibitor switch jumper from when he did the manual conversion..... it's hard to say from a distance without playing with it myself. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I had a bad starter, and my car for years had an issue with a click*click*click*start.. I did a redneck rebuild of the starter (disassemble, clean, lube, reassemble with bad brushes ) and it worked for a while.. then it died, and i put a good JY unit in. It worked for like, two days, then the click*click* came back, with a vengeance.. just, no start. My solution was to install a relay into the starter circuit. Much Much better fix than a simple push-button switch, since I had no desire for the extra button, and also, that much current should just be relayed to avoid wiring problems later on. You can PM me for info on the relay circuitry I used, its REALLY simple and I got it all from the JY (bosch components, out of a BMW, for near free, or chinese components, from pep boys, for $30??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchsub Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Have you checked the battery cables? I've had poor cables cause similar results. The stock cables are aluminium and get nasty after a few years. GD Would the battery cables really cause that kind of problem where hitting the starter i can get it to start again? If so yea ill go check them when i get a chance. Thanks for all the help guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Sometimes getting under the hood and in the process of smacking the starter you move the cable a bit, etc. It happened to me anyway. Just one of those things. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 do you still have stock battery cables? the stockers had these little sheetmetal copper things for battery terminals, bolted onto a cable lug on the end of an insulated cable. The positive cable had a second layer of red insulation on it to make it look thicker These cables, after 20 years, need to be replaced. My old ground cable had a bad connection between the wire and the cable lug; if you wiggled the wire right where it went into the metal it would intermittently make a great connection, and an awful one..... try turning on your headlights, and wiggling your cables where the wire goes into the metal, and see if you get any flickering.. if you get any flickering, replace that cable. ten bucks for the two of them should be more than enough. And, if you replace the cable, you KNOW you have a good battery in there, and you KNOW you have a good starter in there, and you STILL get the click click no start, contact me for info about relaying the circuit... the starter motor gets ITS juice directly through the positive cable... the SOLENOID gets its juice through your keyswitch.. and we can make it so that the SOLENOID get its power through a relay, and that relay is activated by your keyswitch. This is the way a starter circuit should be engineered on a car in the first place, anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchsub Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 Well i just had a brain fart and remembered that the negative had been replaced about 2 years ago when i had problems like this..except i didnt even get a click..just nothing. So ill go check the positive. If i remember it looked pretty old. But doesnt the positive have a crapload of other wires on it? Its not just one cable is it? Oh well i gotta get to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Well i just had a brain fart and remembered that the negative had been replaced about 2 years ago when i had problems like this..except i didnt even get a click..just nothing. So ill go check the positive. If i remember it looked pretty old. But doesnt the positive have a crapload of other wires on it? Its not just one cable is it? Oh well i gotta get to bed. You can buy battery cables with extra wires molded into the lead terminal, that come with crimps to attach to the wires in the car... or you could put large ring terminals on the other positive power wires and thread them on the bolt. The BEST way would be to get the cable with the molded wires, cut the crimp connections off, and solder the thing in (using heat shrink tubing, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subie_newbie Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 +1 for ground battery cable. If you replaced it two years ago, just pull it off at the block and the fender and sand the connector and the block/fender where they meet, then reconnect. If you live in a rust state, spray on some electrical protector stuff (rattle can bought at any parts store). If you're still having problems check the positive with the headlights/wiggle the cable technique (I like that trick, Deron!). If still having the problem, jump the solenoid with gator-clip wire a few times and see if it still happens. If it happens - solenoid. If not - ignition switch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 If you're still having problems check the positive with the headlights/wiggle the cable technique (I like that trick, Deron!). If still having the problem, jump the solenoid with gator-clip wire a few times and see if it still happens. If it happens - solenoid. If not - ignition switch You like that?? heres another about up that same alley.. both of these are compliments of my old man.. You get in a car, and try to start it, and it doesn't turn over. Two possibilities.. bad starter, or low voltage. To check and see if your battery is strong enough to crank the car, turn the headlights on and hit the horn... if the headlights come on and the horn sounds clearly, chances are your battery has enough juice in it to crank your car over, and the starter system is likely to be the culprit.. Anyhow, back on topic with the thread, I figured I would add to your response, that when you say "bad ignition switch" then it merely means "bad" in the sense I was describing above.. IE, easily remedied by integrating a relay into the circuit.. can you tell im kinda hinting that I am fond of a certain retro-engineering project?? :brow: anyhow, hope you get it figured out without too much difficulty. FAR from an uncommon problem; most of us have experienced it on one or two cars, if not our subarus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Clicky starter -- problem on three or four subaru's I've owned. Sometimes I've gotten them for cheap because "it won't start". I've always just put in a new starter for $25 (okay, that's a used one...). I agree that the wiring to the EA81 starter is somewhat crappy. Right now my EA81 has to be jumped (touch +12v wire to solinoid terminal on starter) because the ignition switch starter position isn't working, as well. But your problem does sound like the starter. I'd run new #4AWG cables directly from the battery to the starter, and from the battery to the engine ground. Then, if that doesn't help, just get a different starter. We had a 1981 school bus that wouldn't start -- the big 4/0 cables were corroded just enough to not carry the high amperage a DT466 requires to start. Took a day or two to figure out, and we took the cables off and put them back on and tested them multiple times. That's why I suggest just putting new battery cables on there -- electrical gremlins are headaches, so eliminate them wherever possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Right now my EA81 has to be jumped (touch +12v wire to solinoid terminal on starter) because the ignition switch starter position isn't working, as well. My issue was with an EA82 car, but my datsun has the same problems.. and they are resolved by installing a relay to do the "jumping" for you :-p the relay just happens to be activated by the old wire coming from the keyswitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 My issue was with an EA82 car, but my datsun has the same problems.. and they are resolved by installing a relay to do the "jumping" for you :-p the relay just happens to be activated by the old wire coming from the keyswitch I'm just going to put a big black pushbutton in the dash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 as daeron says The starter relay idea has been used on this board since I can remember (Yikes!!) Here is the wiring transcribed from a post I made in about the year 2000. It uses a standard aux lighting relay. Any autoparts store (even Wally World) have them. Or you could just butcher your dash and put a big button on it. Some of us have used a more subtle approach and mount a "never fail" button below the dash. Aux horn buttons work fine as they are made for higher current. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 The relay is simply the safest way to wire in an auxiliary switch.. I mean, chances are fairly minimal that 12VDC is gonna cause a fire or something, but it DOES happen (happened to me Z!!! ) Plus, the biggest reason that the issue comes up in these older cars is, the wiring simply cannot take the amperage load after all these years.. So, we shorten the wiring that carries that high amperage, and we avoid routing that amperage through the cabin.. instead the only juice flowing through the switch is a low amperage "signal" current to trigger the relay. You could use the stock solenoid wire coming off of the ignition switch to signal your relay, or if you want to big pushbutton starter switch, you can use THAT to signal your relay.. but the switch by itself is not the wisest idea. Yes, it has been done many many times, and will be done successfully in the future.. but it is not the *right* way. skip, would you mind horribly if I were to link to that image in the future?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 How much does a starter relay draw? I guess I could measure it huh? The pushbutton starters I'm thinking of are actualy on vehicals without a relay coil on the starter relay -- they push in the plunger on the relay directly, so essentially, it's a 200A pushbutton you are pushing...., not just a 5 or 10 amp one. Obviously retrofitting a subaru would be alot lower amperage than the 200 amps, since it does have a relay mounted on the starter. I figured running 10 guage wire into the dash and back would be fine, as long as the switch is properly rated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I believe we have a semantics problem here. The "starter relay" is the relay shown in the above schematic. These draw on the order of 100 milliamps ((0.10 Amps) Subarus of this vinatge do not have a "starter relay". I believe you mean "starter solenoid" These draw on the order of 10 amps. You also speak of direct starter switches which would need to handle full starter amperage on the order of 100 amps. The holes in your bulkhead for the cables would be emormous. Why even run 10 AWG as the ignition switch wiring will easily handle the relay shown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 The simplest way to think of it is thus... You say that you have been "jumping" the starter by routing 12VDC directly to the solenoid terminal to get it to start. You do this, because the system in the car designed to do just that (the ignition switch) is no longer supplying enough current to get the job done, due to resistance that has built up in the wires, the solder connections, and the switch over the years... The relay we suggest installing is basically a little box that does the exact same thing. Four terminals to the relay: 85, 86, 87, and 30. Four wires to attach. 30 goes to a fused power source, this is high current from battery to relay. 85 is where you connect the wire currently attached to the solenoid terminal, this wire comes from the keyswitch and tells the relay to switch "on" 86 is the relay ground (it is an electronically operated switch, so it needs its own ground to function) and 87 is high current from the relay to the starter solenoid terminal. Think of the relay as a dummy assistant, just there to jumper your solenoid. Instead of saying "Hey buddy, hit the starter!!" you turn your key, sending juice to the relay. This causes the relay to close (switch "on") and your starter starts. Voila! If I spelled it out a little clearer than necessary, please don't take offense. I am actually trying to find the most effective way to word this so I can write it up for the USRM, and actually ANY automobile site. Abnormal resistance in the starter circuit (as well as many other circuits) is a problem like corroded CTS connections.. very common to old cars in general, not just soobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Why even run 10 AWG as the ignition switch wiring will easily handle the relay shown? No reason, other than because I don't like relays and I would rather run 10AWG wire, than add another relay.... Relays on old cars seem even flakier than wiring, but it's easy for me to replace wiring. The direct starter switches I've seen actually never have wires come through the bulkhead -- the switch portion sits on the engine side, and the the pushbutton sticks through to the dashboard side -- obviously these don't work if you can't easily see both sides of the bulkhead -- like on any car newer than 1965 or so..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skip Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I have no idea why I answer this, get serious and buy a starter switch from an Austin Healey Bugeye Sprite. No wires - just a cable to pull the contacts together. Switch unit is the under the hood, simple choke cable into the cockpit. No wires, no chance of short circuits, no flaky relays Just your idea of dependable. (wonder why they phased them out in 1960?) You will no doubt be happy to read I am unsubscribing from this thread and will leave you to your devises. Sorry I couldn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 its your cash, and your car. Soend three bucks on ten feet of ten or eight gage wire. Spend fifteen, twenty bucks on a high amperage switch. take at least as much time to install a safe circuit as the relay idea. and wind up with a $30 starter switch that heats up and will in time, fail, just like your stock system.. My starter relay circuit cost me nothing but time, because it was all little relay stuff out of a 96 BMW that I pocketed in the JY one day.. even had I paid for it, it would have come to under $20. I needed to use about four feet total of 10 gage wiring, and an inline 30 amp fuse for the high current going to the relay. MY plans are to use these BMW relay brackets to relay the starter, electric fan, headlights, and ignition circuit on my Z-car using this bracket, ALSO obtained from said BMW The wires that go in these plugs are easy to find and replace, so I just hunted around until I found two good, heavy gage terminals to put in for the high current terminals, and I was good to go. I only used one of these little relay plugs all by itself on the soob, since I was only relaying the one circuit. The 3-5 relay bracket, though, comes complete with a molded plastic cover and everything. As for "flaky" relays, I don't care. I have a handful of 40 amp relays out of various european cars.. some say VW, some say Audi, some say Hella, but they are all bosch units. Easily purchased new if I wanted to, and even more easily obtained in a boneyard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 You will no doubt be happy to read I am unsubscribing from this thread and will leave you to your devises. Sorry I couldn't help. If you read my first post in this thread, I didn't ask for help. I was trying to offer suggestions to the person who orginated the thread. :-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Only problem with the relay is that it still relies on the starter position of the ignition switch to be making good contact. If it makes poor contact it will be the point where the current load is too great. Which I believe is the root cause of 90% of these "CLICK" no start issues in old subies (and old Hondas and Toyotas too I might add) Run a fused(important) wire of at least 12 gauge off of the positive battery post of the starter. Run to a button on dash, back to solenoid with a piggyback so you can put the original wire on the solenoid terminal as well. That way you only need the button if the no start happens. Running the 12v lead off the starter makes the distance as short as possible. And I hate wiring right off the battery even with a fused lead. I've used a 15 amp wire/swtich/fuse and have not blown a fuse or melted a wire. The most recent car I did this in had a relay setup wired in already when I got it. Didn't work cause the ignition switch is so crappy. The ignition switch works sometimes, but rarely, so the relay didn't do squat. I took it out. Button works with out fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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