value needed 97 outback bad HG every else good...

[biglittledog]

Quick question: What would you pay for an 97 [edit] Outback Limited w/AT and 130k miles. Good shape and very clean BUT needs head gaskets. Its a private seller and not a car lot and they seem very honest about the situation. Car threw a CEL and they took it in immediately and they showed me the estimate from a local shop. It failed an HC test.The car has been driven less than 80 miles since the diagnosis. I know the KBB and NADA values are around 5600 to 6K if everything was decent, but I'd be taking some risk by buying a car needed this repair. Knowing you were gambling a little, what would you pay?

Is 3500 too much or fair?

 

PS-I've just done lots of HG thread reading but not found much on values...

[Skip]

Biglittledog,

Please edit or correct this post

 

The subject says 97

 

thread says 99??

 

May make a difference in price ?

 

 

 

 

Only an example:

I bought my 97 OB with a bad idler pulley and such

for 500 USD

[idosubaru]

3,500 is really high, i wouldn't pay close to that for it. it depends on you, what you want it for and how bad you need a car. i've seen them for $500 before as well, like skip said. i would stay in the $500 - $1000 range, maybe up to $2,000 if you wanted the vehicle.

[biglittledog]

3,500 is really high, i wouldn't pay close to that for it. it depends on you, what you want it for and how bad you need a car. i've seen them for $500 before as well, like skip said. i would stay in the $500 - $1000 range, maybe up to $2,000 if you wanted the vehicle.

 

I don't need a car badly at all right now. I'm thinking of replacing my Jeep Grand Cherokee (great in snow but crappy mileage and constant mechanical probs...good old GM) with an Legacy or Outback. This car is tempting because it's decked out with a leather interior and the works so I'd figure it was worth more than an L needing same repair. Of course it's not tempting because of the 2.5 Phase 1 motor and HG prob. There are some very, very good Subaru-only shops in town and if I had the HG done I should be reasonably good to go?

It sounds like if I can't get it cheap, it's better to pass and look for an earlier Outback with the 2.2L motor anyway.

Low mileage but major repair...that's the tradeoff.

I don't think she'd take 2 grand but I could float it out there just to see what happens.

[chef_tim]

Here's my story.....

I bought a 97 OBW for $3100 with 142,000 on it. I didn't realize that it had a bad HG until after I bought it. I just replaced the motor with a CCR reman and it has been a great car since. Sure, I have to do maintenance repairs on it but for what we use the car for it is well worth it to us. I think that with a known HG problem you should get it fairly cheap. Just my .02, Tim

[WoodsWagon]

A blown headgasket won't usually throw a CEL... So I think there's more than one problem there.

 

We bought an outback with a blown headgasket for 2,200, which after watching craigslist, I think was a bit much. Outbacks with blown headgaskets come up in the 800-1700 range fairly often.

 

I woudn't buy it.

 

Oh, and Jeep's are Crysler, not GM. So you're even farther down the reliability slope.

[idosubaru]

even for the nicer model that's really high. maybe if it was 60,000- 80,000 miles, or a manual. but that's fairly high mileage for an auto trans. i've had two 4EAT's come through my hands that failed at 140k - 150k and my wifes coworker is having her 99 Legacy rebuilt right now at 100k. they *can* last much longer, that's not my point and i'm sure there will be posts about a billion mile auto trans, but they do tend to have more issues at 150k than the manual trans. the thing is, cars with damage don't sell well, at all. cars that don't run can be even harder to sell. sellers try the "we'll sell it for full value minus the costs of an engine"...but the market doesn't support that kind of accounting. it doesn't work that way. try $2,000 and when she doesn't take it, be sure to give her your number or stop back in two months, because it will be unlikely to sell unless she lies about the HG. but again, if it's what you want, it might be worth it to you to go ahead and work the deal and get it now. wagons are fairly common and you're in a good market, you should be able to find another i'd think.

 

CCR is in denver, contact them about engine replacement if that's the route you want to go. they are excellent, by far the most notable engine rebuilders in the country, with excellent product, service and support, including full warranty. and yes once the headgaskets are replaced you should be fine if they do the job right and use the updated headgasket. there are very rare cases of engines with block issues or headgaskets that didn't hold, but that is not the norm.

[Steve455]

i paid $250 for my old 96 outback with blown headgaskets,there was a 97 ouback for sale around here awile ago with blown headgaskets for $700.

[biglittledog]

Thanks everyone. This helps a lot! The HG didn't throw the CEL but the owner said it started idling funny and the CEL came on. It immediately went to a local shop and the code read "misfire #1 cyl" and they did a hydrocarbon test which it failed. It was driven back and parked. I was shortening the story for the sake of brevity.

I thinks the owner is very honest about everything and bummed about her car. She was indeed hoping the value was the fair KBB value minus the repair.

There are many wagons and good shops around these parts. I was having trouble weighing the balance between a running car with/without HG repair and getting a car like this and having the repair done by a shop I know is good. The money spent would be the same but I would know the repair was done right.

What I'm hearing from everyone is that I should get the car pretty cheap in it's present condition. Thanks!

[xrturbo]

That car should be worth anywhere from 500-1000. I sold a 97 with that mileage that ran great for 4400.

[biglittledog]

She didn't take my offer as I kind of expected. Much of the reason is the damned KBB and NADA. Those prices may work for stealerships selling used cars but I don't think many private party sales are for the bluebook price, especially on a 8 or 10+ year old auto.

Bluebooks suck. With plenty of sellers listing high prices on Craigslist because it's free (nothing to lose), its easy to think your car is worth more than it is. Unfortunately the sold cars are removed from the list and the high priced ones just keep relisting and relisting and relisting. It's easy to get a false sense of inflated value. I wish there was a "completed auctions" setting like Ebay...

Thanks for the help!

 

[edit for clarity]

[Skip]

Good on ya Biglittledog.

 

Some people ??

 

Keep shopping yours will come along.

 

Real glad you resisted the temptation.

Maybe in a month or so she'll relent.

[xrturbo]

KBB is for dreamers who want to think their car is worth a million bucks. Too bad you arent closer, I have a 212,xxx mile 96 2.2 5spd O/B coming in tonight that I gotta throw some cats on for real cheap and it is actually pretty nice for the mileage.

[idosubaru]

buying one and fixing it is the only kind of 2.5 that i would drive as a daily driver or road trip vehicle or allow my wife to drive. so that's not a bad option, but i wouldn't pay top dollars minus repair costs for it, that's for sure. expect high repair costs if you do, you'll want more than just new heasgaskets, best to replace everything while it's apart...timing belts, water pump, oil pump seals/gaskets, cam seals, valve adjusted, (complete clutch kit if it's a manual)...etc. so figure a little higher than the "standard" headgasket repair $1,200-$1,500 if you do go this route.

 

it's a bit odd that it failed the hydrocarbon test. these engines rarely fail the HC test when the headgasket first begins to leak. it's a "feature" of the EJ25. that's why mechanics who don't know subaru's typically throw parts at them...radiators, water pumps, thermostats....etc. they think the headgasket is fine because it passed the HC test. that's often not the case with these engines, the HG issue can be nearly impossible to detect with the exception of the occassional overheating.

[msmithmmx]

On ebay right now there is one for 800.00 with blow HG's. The high end is 1700.00. If you can't do this repair yourself I would stay away from this project. To many working OBW's on ebay to go this route. I just turned one down for 1,100 w/ 200K miles w/ blown HG. My limit is 800.00

[msmithmmx]

The link for the OBW with a blown HG. Under 900

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=290133156595&rd=1&rd=1

[biglittledog]

Hey, thanks for keeping me sensible! We'll see what happens...she wanted 3400 and I could possibly drop it some but not much so I'm gonna wait and keep looking. I was thinking like you, Grossgary, the only way to really trust an early 2.5L would be with new HG and know the repair was done right.

Thanks for the linky to the OB. I see they are out there and one closer will pop along. I'm not in a hurry.

Grossgary, would anything else make the car fail its HC test or could the shop have made a mistake or been blowing smoke to get a big repair job? If there is another way to test the car I'd go do it just because it's only about 10 minutes away.

Any other thoughts on the HC test result?

[msmithmmx]

If its test positive for HC's its a head gasket. No if's and's or but's. Trust us, the ONLY way she will get her asking price is if she drops the head gasket problem from the description. Otherwise its just scrap metal sitting on her drive way. You should send her a link to this page and that ebay auction. Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow without some proof.

[idosubaru]

HC testing positive is a bad thing. i would assume the headgaskets are bad.

 

i looked up autotrader today and found a few wagons under $2,000 in perfectly running condition. i don't know your area but wagons are everywhere around here. that's why they go so cheap on ebay, there are quite a number of them.

[biglittledog]

HC testing positive is a bad thing. i would assume the headgaskets are bad.

 

i looked up autotrader today and found a few wagons under $2,000 in perfectly running condition. i don't know your area but wagons are everywhere around here. that's why they go so cheap on ebay, there are quite a number of them.

 

Thanks, and I'll keep looking... everyone's advice is worth it's weight in gold.

I did kinda like the Limited with the leather seats and all though.

[ron917]

I discovered a tool for pricing cars like this, at edmunds.com. The Used Car appraiser allows you to select the vehicles condition. In a case like this (blown HG), it would fall under the "Damaged" condition due to a major mechanical problem. If you select "Damaged", the tool says that they do not provide an appraisal, but the fair price would be the value in "Average" condition minus the cost of repair.

 

At Edmungs, or a '97 Outback Limited AT, 130K, in "Average" condition, private party sale in my ZIP code, the price is $2422. Subtract $1500 for a proper head gasket and reseal job, and you're at $922, which is right in the range suggested by others.

 

Edmunds is good in that it lists both private party and dealer retail prices. NADA lists only retail prices - this is a dealer price, not private party. KBB prices seems ridiculously high. Edmunds prices are supposedly based on what people are actually paying. KBB and NADA seem to exist to prop up the prices at dealers. I especially don't trust NADA - it stands for National Automobile Dealer Association, an industry trade group.

[Olnick]

Amen to that, ron917. I've always used Edmunds to find the most realistic value for a car--always felt that KBB was inflated for dealers to use. And I've never even looked at NADA simply because of who they are!

 

Thanks for posting this.

[biglittledog]

WARNING: SHORT RANT AHEAD!

I guess bluebooks are nice and easy to look at, but I think it's all poop. Each car is worth what it sells for, period. There are just too many variables involved in an individual vehicle plus sellers rating of condition to make bluebook values worthwhile.

I think that average minus the repair is crap too. Its just an easy way for Edmunds to calculate a value. Let sellers just repair it themselves and then sell it for the average price! Why should I take the risk and PITA involved in a major repair because Edmunds says I should?

I don't want to sound ungreatful, because I'm not and appreciate your idea. It's just that NADA and Edmunds and KBB have dumbed this whole process down to year, model, options, mileage, select one of 4 conditions and ABRACADABRA! here's your value!

Or not.

I guess I'm a little sick of seller's who have done this and are convinced that is what there car is worth even if it's been passed over by loads of buyers and relisted and relisted and relisted. Then they won't budge on price because the bluebook on the internet is some kind of holy bible that tells me and the buyer that the car is worth THIS much... year, model, options, mileage, 4 conditions.

Baloney and poop.

I don't mind looking until I find the right car but I end up wasting huge amounts of time on cars that seem inflated partially because of the internet bluebooks everybody checks.

Cars are worth what they sell for...see what disappears on craigslist or sells on Ebay and you have a decent idea of value.

Oh yeah, that car that I started this thread about is still sitting there for sale...and the seller is convinced the price is correct.

[msmithmmx]

You really want that car. Sometimes you have to let her go. To bad you don't leave in PA, there are a several listed at any one time on Ebay.