scotte6 Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I'm having problems with overheating. antifreeze looks good, can see some movment in the reservoir. changed t/s but had a leak. in the mean time tested old t/s, working fine so re-installed. filled rad while car on ramps, through the vent hole very slowly so as to minimize air in system. car ran great, started to work this morning got about 12-14 miles to a steep hill, by the time I got to the top heat gauge was 3/4 and rising fast. oil looks good, cannot smell anything in the exhaust. trailered home tonight, refilled rad and ran for ~ 30 mins, all good. ran for at least 10 mins @ >2000rpm, still good. afraid to take it back on the road as I havn't really done anything to correct the problem. any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eryque Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Are the fans working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I asume that your Legacy has the infamous 2.5L DOHC "Phase I" engine. Do a search on "head gasket failure", "Phase I" , or " 2.5L DOHC". There have been a huge number of threads on 2.5L DOHC Phase I head gasket failures. I hope that you have not suffered a head gasket failure. In any event, you are wise not to drive the car until the overheating problem has been resovled. Warped heads or a cracked block will only add to your woes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eryque Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 You know, I was just talking to my brother about this last night. He just took over as manager of a shop in a major chain and he and his mechanics went nuts over this exact issue and finally found that it was a head gasket. They figured it out by going to some really expensive web-based diagnostic tool which costs hundreds a year for a subscription. He should have just asked on here :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 sounds like classic EJ25 headgasket issues. i would certainly try to rule out other things, but bubbling in the overflow tank once it's hot and after you turn the car off is a very strong indicator. you mentioned "movement" in that tank, so this sounds about right. i'd at least make sure the fans are working properly, there are not any leaks and the water pump/radiators appear to function properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I am not going to sugar coat this for you. There is a 98% chance you blew the head gasket. You will need a compression test, if that does not confirm it, then ask for a hydrocarbin test, that will be the dead give away. Do not replace the radiator before any of this is done. The fix for this job is at or around 1400. Sorry man. I have one now I am try to fix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotte6 Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 yes it is 2.5 DOHC motor. yes fans are working. with car parked, 1 fan comes on intermittently. Have seen both run. I did not see any "bubbles or movement" in the reservoir tank when car was off, only when running. replaced water pump about 2 months ago, no leaks. Why wouldn't it overheat sitting? I am afraid it is a head gasket, just want to make SURE it is before I go through all of the work to change it out. What is the best way to go about changing them? Pull the motor? Is there any place on-line to purchase oem gaskets? I have read some of the threads that say make sure you get "this" gasket, but don't recall seeing a part number or description. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 [...]I did not see any "bubbles or movement" in the reservoir tank when car was off, only when running. replaced water pump about 2 months ago, no leaks. If the "movement" in the reservoir stops as soon as the engine is shut down, it's likely that a bad HG is causing it. If it were overheating to the point of coolant boiling, any bubbling typically would continue for a while after shut-down. Why wouldn't it overheat sitting?Climbing hills puts a lot more load on the engine than "sitting". The additional pressures and elevated temperature allow things to move that otherwise might not. I am afraid it is a head gasket, just want to make SURE it is before I go through all of the work to change it out.[...]A test for hydrocarbons in the coolant is pretty definitive; not smelling anything in the exhaust isn't conclusive. By the way, welcome to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 intermittent overheating is normal, overheating while pulling an ascent is not out of the ordinary. i would use the search function here and find the detailed headgasket page that's linked, it's not part of USMB. you can also find it from a search engine like yahoo. details a huge parts list, time, prices, where to get parts, part numbers, etc. the "new" headgasket part number will be listed there as well. what OBW just mentioned is very important. compression tests and hydrocarbon tests can prove a bad headgasket, but passing both of them does not mean your headgasket is good. that's the oddity of this motor that really throws mechanics for a loop since passing those two tests "usually" means the headgasket is good on other motors. pulling the motor is a nice way to go but it can be done in the car if you have to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Folks your forgetting KISS, I dont see anywhere anyone saying anything about the radiator cap. Replace that first. a HG is not going to care if the car is going uphill or not. Double and triple check for air bubbles. I would replace the Tstat with a new one from subaru. It may not be opnening up far enough or fast enough. Inspect the radiator physicaly to make sure the fins arent blocked and are in good shape. What level is the overflow tank at? When the car gets hot do you get heat? I am not convinced its a HG, yet. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotte6 Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 I was curious about the radiator cap. Are they that sensitive that it could cause such problems? Resevoir tank is about 1/2 full. Yes I have heat, very good heat. Like I said before I see movement in the tank but no bubbles. Will the bubbles be small like in a glass of soda? I don't have a compression tester nor have I ever done a hydrocarbon test. Is the hydrocarbon test something I can do myself? What are you looking for on a compression test? Do you crank it over and watch for the pressure to leak off, or just compare psi? Radiator is in good shape physically, not sure of internally. btw.....this board is amazing. I want to thank everyone for all of the good advice. I am very impressed with the amount of feedback and the details. Keep it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Yes a cap can make that much of a difference. Since you have really good heat, i am 98% sure you dont have a HG issue. Usually when its a HG issue, you loose your heat. If it was a blown HG, the bubble would be constant and steady, if not violent. Try the cap first. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotte6 Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 does the cap have to be genuine subaru, can I get one from napa? I understand the thermostat has to be from subaru but have not seen anyone say that about the cap. I am willing to try most anything to avoid replacing the HGs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Caps can be from anywhere, i have yet to hear of anyone screwing one up, but 90% of them seem to be stant (which is good) nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotte6 Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 one more quick update. I let the car run for about 1.5 hours, never went above half way on the heat gauge. one time after about 30 mins I opened the resevoir and there might have been ~ 10 - 12 real small bubbles. they dissipated almost immediately. not sure if that means anything or not. the rest of the "movement" I think it is vibration from the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Remove radiator cap. top off radiator. Start car. Wait for the car to spit up (this will be the thermostat opening) Top off radiator with car running. Look for bubbles. There should be NO bubbles (well maybe a stary one, but even then i would be suspicous). Radiator cap malfunctioning can cause the little bubbles as the trapped air gets pushed out. If you had a bad HG there would be alot of messey bubbles. Get a cap, either way you need to replace it http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system7.htm nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Are you going to fix the HG? You looking to sell her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Since you have really good heat, i am 98% sure you dont have a HG issue. i don't think this is the case, not with the EJ25. the ones i'm seeing have heat available, so in my experience this doesn't rule out anything. but surely a thorough cooling system check is advisable and it's good that you can do it yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagleb Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 My 2.5 HG experience... Temp gauge would start climbing after driving for ~ 20 min. Never got to hot. It would climb to just under hot, then slowly go back to normal. I always had heat, and the car's performance was never hampered. What I realized was that there was a small hole in the HG allowing some exhaust gas to get into the coolant. That gas would accumulate at the tstat, causing the temp gauge to go up, once the bubbles formed a bigger bubble, it would pass through the tstat, and the gauge would go back down. Hydrocarbon test showed hc's in the coolant, got new HGs, and have had no temp issues since. Hopefully this is not the case for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotte6 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 changed radiator cap, drove about 5 miles and heat gaugetook off like a rocket. Looks like I have to face the fact the hg is blown. On my way to retrieve a lift to pull the motor. I want to thank everyone for there help and suggestions. I'm sure I will be back for more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 changed radiator cap, drove about 5 miles and heat gaugetook off like a rocket. Looks like I have to face the fact the hg is blown. On my way to retrieve a lift to pull the motor. I want to thank everyone for there help and suggestions. I'm sure I will be back for more! Silly question, why not just replace the HG in this one? Obviously en tngine is fine otherwise, especially since you haven cooked it. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotte6 Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 that is my intention (replace hg), I just think it will be easier to pull the engine to replace them. looks like front crank seal might be starting to leak a little too. I would rather just pull the engine so I can get at it to work on it. Got a "estimate" today of $200 - $250 to have the heads resurfaced, pressure tested, and valves done. Have not checked on gaskets yet. I just figured I might as well do everything while I am at it. Any watch-outs or "now is a good time to do that" that anyone knows about let me now. Hopefully it will be good for another 100,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 yep, great motors and another 100,000 is not unreasonable to expect after you're done. that head work quote sounds about right for having it pressure tested as well. if it's an automatic, be sure to read very carefully and pay attention to reseating the torque converter when putting it back together. it's a bit tricky and if you get it wrong you'll end up needing another transmission, unless you like taking those apart. i believe some of the rear separator plates around your year are plastic. you'll see it next to the rear main seal, replace it with a metal one available at the dealer. remove the oil pump and tighten the backing plate screws with some threadlocker on them, they tend to back out. other than that, everything else is fairly straight forward. there's a ton of information on here about everything...crank bolt, cam bolts, cam seals, oil pumps....etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 that is my intention (replace hg), I just think it will be easier to pull the engine to replace them. looks like front crank seal might be starting to leak a little too. I would rather just pull the engine so I can get at it to work on it. Got a "estimate" today of $200 - $250 to have the heads resurfaced, pressure tested, and valves done. Have not checked on gaskets yet. I just figured I might as well do everything while I am at it. Any watch-outs or "now is a good time to do that" that anyone knows about let me now. Hopefully it will be good for another 100,000. AH my mistake, i thought maybe you were going replace the engine. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotte6 Posted August 12, 2007 Author Share Posted August 12, 2007 ok, now I am worried. Got the motor out yesterday, wasn't to bad, pretty much as explained on here. Pulled heads off today and I CANNOT find any sign of a BLOWN HG! Gaskets appear to be 3 layers, thin metal on each side over some other material. One thing I did find was one spark plug on the passenger side was loose! The cavity that the plug sits down in was black compared to the other 3 being clean. Plugs are champions, which I have heard good and bad about that, and appear to be ~ 42 - 44 on the gap. Obviously I have to push on (heads rebuilt/tested) does anyone have any ideas? other suggestions I have heard: replace plastic seperator plate with metal retighten oil pump backing bolts seal in the front of the transmission front & rear main seal new oem thermostat new NGK spark plugs oil/filter comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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