drive shaft play?

[oooo]

How much play should there be in the drive shaft I can turn mine about half and inch to almost an inch before it catches, is that the usual amount and if it isn't, how much should be, and what do I need to do to remedy this.

 

thanks in advance

[idosubaru]

sounds normal to me, they tend to have some play in them by design, but you might want to explain a little more..it could mean something is wrong depending what kind of play you're talking about (what direction is the play in). specific details help A LOT when we can't see, hear, or touch it.

 

how exactly are you checking? rotating it by hand or shaft play forward-to-rear, or side-to-side?

 

and more importantly, why are you checking it - sounds like you're looking for something? why are you looking for something, are their symptoms you're trying to track down? those would be good for us to know.

[oooo]

Sorry I'll be more specific, and I guess it will be best to just start from the beginning so if anybody has some answers to this or some other problems from my build just chime in. This is the saga of my subaru so far. I have a 1995 legacy lsi automatic that I lifted with outback gr2 struts and pedders heavy duty standard height outback springs and 27.4 inch tall by 9.5 inch wide bridgestone dueller revo's. My transmission started to go so I figured I would replace my 4.11 tranny with a 96 outback 4.44 to get some performance back and to get my speedo to read normal again(already got one ticket because of that). I located one and the junkyard said it only had 51 thousand miles:banana: . Well I got it and when it arrived it looked like it had way more then 51 thousand miles on it and the transmission filter had a hole in it and the rest of the filter was so clogged you couldn't even see it:mad: . Located a 96 outback 4.44 rear diff with around 114 thousand miles on it, my mechanic changed the filter and fluid in the tranny and bolted everything up, now it has torque bind. I know its torque bind because when its in fwd it goes away. I'm pretty sure its atleast an outback 4.44 tranny because my speedo is now back to being correct but can't be sure because even in a straight line it feels like its binding a little (can bad clutch packs cause this?) so maybe it is a 4.11 tranny but then my speedo should still be off, but I think the rear diff is bad also because even in fwd it clunks in the rear sometimes. So the plan is to get a new c duty solenoid(better to buy new then chance it with the old one from my 4.11) and use the clutch packs off my old 4.11 transmission and bolt all that up to the outback tranny, because it had no torque bind issues so I'm assuming the clutch packs from it are still good. then see if everything goes away, and maybe just get a different outback rear diff also. When I was talking about play in the drive shaft I mean't when I turned it with my hand thats where the play was at, I don't think it had any from front to back. The other problem I have is I replaced my camshafts with the mild 220 grind from delta cams and my car now wants to Idle a 500rpm sometimes it seems like its gonna stall, and when we adjust it to idle higher the computer learns and adjusts it back, so another qestion is, is it supposed to idle that low or is something else going on and if so how do I fix it. Additional info, timing belt, water pump and filter was done about 20 thousand miles ago and I just had the rear seal and valve gaskets and the other seals done with the camshafts, and had the metal separator plate put in just to be safe.

Sorry for such a long post. If anybody has some info or theories or suggestions for any of this or anything else I might have overlooked, just post it up, because this is my daily driver and I need it back on the road. Also is there and easy way to tell if it is a 4.44 tranny? That just about covers it, if I can think of anything else I will post it up

 

Thanks in advance

[oooo]

Another new problem just showed up, the speedo needle bounces around if going under 30mph but once I reach that speed it works normal.

[idosubaru]

wow. what a saga! you need to verify the final drive ratios of your trans and rear diff. why go through all of this work if the duty C is fine?

 

first oddity of this story: when you say transmission filter do you mean the external screw on filter had a hole in it or the internal filter (just a screen) had a hole in it? either way this doesn't sound good. if it's an external filter then the year of the trans is way off (1998+), if it's the internal filter there's no way that should have had a hole in it and been clogged. that sounds very bad.

 

the first problem you may have is that you don't have a 1995 transmission. did this transmission bolt up fine to the engine or was it slightly different? it sounds like you have a 1998 transmission. if you remember your 1995 didn't have a transmission filter on it. it might be different enough from your 1995 to cause issues. the TCU might be locking the clutches regardless of the final drives being right?

 

to check the final drives:

 

for the rear you can just count revolutions - make a mark on a rear tire and on the driveshaft. turn them 10 times.....the other will turn either 41 (4.11) or 44 (4.44) times around. or divide those numbers by 2 - 5 times will be 20.5 (4.11) or 22 (4.44).

 

the trans is a REAL PITA. subaru did not make this easy and seemed to vary the final drives a lot...making it annoying for boards like this to figure things out. manual trans are easy, automatics are just a pain.

 

the only way to do that with the front without massive disassembly is to remove the diff drain plug and try and mark/count one of the teeth on the diff. rotate the tire on that side and count the same way as before.

 

the other option is to read the trans number off the case and call Subaru and ask them or ask a junk yard to check - they seem to have okay databases to work with.

 

another option. knowing this auto trans should be a 4.44 or 4.11....if the rear is a 4.44, i would just swap your old 4.11 in it's place and see if the torque bind goes away. but not knowing if the trans is even working right, being the year differences, this isn't really a good option for you here.

[oooo]

Thanks for the info grossgary, Ive been lurking on this board and ausubaru.com for a few years gathering subaru knowledge by bits and pieces at a time so I knew I needed a phase I tranasmission from 96 or early 97. My new used outback trans doesn't have the external screw on filter, it was the internal that had a hole in it . the trans is 4 bolts and not the eight and no spin on filter, so I know it was atleast a pre 98 before the redesign, plus from what I can put together they also changed the plugs on the redesigned trans, everything on mine plugged up just right. I used to have the trans code for the 4.44 auto outback saved on my computer( that I got off a post on here somewhere) but my harddrive died so its lost, but before that happened I read it to the junkyard guy over the phone and they confirmed they matched up, so I knew what to order, I think they might have sent me a different tranny. Looked like it had atleast 170,000 plus on it, not the 51 thousand they stated. As long as it is 4.44 I can still handle not getting the low mileage one, just a little pissed. I can't read the code on the tranny now since its bolted up and I don't think it has to be completly removed to change the clutch packs, so I dont think I can see it anytime soon, but I remember that the junkyard had written on it 96 outback(whatever thats worth:lol: ) The plan is, we are gonna cannabalize the parts we need off my old one and see if everything goes away, if it doesn't then try my old 4.11 diff and if that doesn't work, we are gonna just try another 4.44 outback diff from a different junk yard.

 

Another new thing I found out about my messsed up speedo problem is, when it is put in fwd with the fuse it works perfect no bouncing at all just nice and smooth and accurate. So I don't think its any thing stripped on the speed gear in the tranny, maybe its a malfunctioning speed sensor. So could the messed up rear clutch packs and or malfunctioning cduty cause it to bounce around, or could it be from the tranny and rear diff being mismatched. I still think it is a 4.44 tranny because my speedo reads dead on now even with my big tires, with my old tranny it was way way off. And its strange in 4x4 mode from 0 to 30mph how it bounces around and after 30mph it works normal. The reason I'm gonna use a new cduty is for piece of mind, because I have read stories that people either changed one or the other and after it was back together it wouldn't work so they would have to take it back apart and replace the one they didn't or it woud work for a little while then the part they didn't replace died, so I figured since its gonna be apart might as well, you know what they say about an ounce worth of prevention, hahah, so there it is as of now, if anybody has any answers about whats causing the crazy speedo or anything else to add feel free. It goes back to the mechanic to get the work done thursday so I will keep you guys updated with the progress and what we find out.

[idosubaru]

wow. subaru automatic transmissions are about the most painful experience in subaru land. they're annoyingly ambiguous in a number of ways that really suck. anyway, hope you get it figured out.

 

a HOLE in the internal transmission filter and it was all plugged up? i've pulled transmissions with tons of miles and have never even seen a spec of dirt on those screens of the internal filters. that is truely bizarre. they probably tried to lift it with a fork lift...poked through the pan, into the filter, and swapped on another pan?

 

i'd be miffed too about the trans mileage if it seems like they lied about it.

[johnceggleston]

crazy speedo is generally caused by : (not necessarily in this order)

bad front speed sensor

dirty connections between the speedo haed and the wiring harness / cluster

bad speedo head

 

if you have the old trans, try the other speed sensor. did it do this before you swapped the trans.

 

on an auto trans, there is a fairly easy way to check your front and rear diffs to see if they match.

1. unplug the wiring harness going to the trans, passenger side near the fire wall.

2. jack up one side of the car, driver or passenger, both wheels off the ground.

3. start the car and put the trans in neutral. (release the hand brake)

4. rotate one of the off the ground wheels by hand. the other wheel on the same side should match it turn for turn. it will help if you mark both tires at the 6 oclock position with tape. it may take several rotations for any error to show up.

 

this process locks the transfer clutch in 4WD, with the car running the front and rear wheels are locked to the trans output shaft. if the diffs are the same, the wheels turn the same.

[cagranitz]

OK, so I didn't notice a response to the initial question of how much rotational play (not side to side, up or down, front to back) is considered normal.

 

I have a 2000 Outback with the 4EAT. I was under the car just looking at things and grabbed the drive shaft with my hand and tried moving it around in various directions. It was solid in all directions except that I could rotate it about 1/2 inch back and forth (ie CW and CCW).

 

Is this considered normal ?

[tcspeer]

You will know when the drive shaft is bad, it starts out making a chirping sound like a bird when driving down road. Then it will sometime latter turn into a pop on take off.

[GeneralDisorder]

I have a 2000 Outback with the 4EAT. I was under the car just looking at things and grabbed the drive shaft with my hand and tried moving it around in various directions. It was solid in all directions except that I could rotate it about 1/2 inch back and forth (ie CW and CCW).

 

Is this considered normal ?

 

Short answer - yes. This is called "wind-up" in terms of how gears and gear trains will have a certain amount of lash in them and when changing directions all that lash has to be taken up before the gears or gear train can begin transfering power. Around 1/2" to 1" of rotational movement is what you will see from the normal lash setting of the ring and pinion gears inside the rear diff. The gear teeth are set so that if one gear is held stationary then the other gear can move a few thousandths of an inch (I think around .007" to .010" IIRC) - this allows for heat expansion, lubrication, etc. That tiny amount of play at the gear tooth translates to quite a bit of rotational movement out at the diameter of the shaft.... additional play comes from the gear lash of the spider gears inside the differential and sometimes even from the splined interface of the axle stub where it interfaces with the spider gears.... it all adds up and can seem like a lot. But it's designed that way on purpose.

 

GD