Another overheating question, sorry

[lollydolly]

Hi all,

 

I've been trying to find info on this from all over but keep getting blown headgasket results, which isn't my problem. Here's my situation:

 

Live in Seattle, so traffic is awful. I drove home from work in heavy, then light, then heavy, light, etc, traffic. Car was fine. 15 minutes after getting home, back in the car with my husband to drive to a suburb about 20 minutes away. We drove about 1/2 mile, hit a stop light before getting on the freeway. The engine temperature starts on it's way up to red. Husband turned on heater full blast, the temp went down to normal.

 

Got on freeway, car was fine. Drove 50-60 mph the whole way, no issues, no acceleration problems, nothing.

 

Got off freeway, first stoplight, car was fine. Second stoplight, temp goes up again, turned heater on full blast, heat comes through, but then for a second or two, no heat, just regular air, then seconds later, back to heat and temp went down, no other issues during other stoplights (3) and after arriving at our destination, we sat in the car for a minute or so with the car idiling, and the temp was fine.

 

Before leaving about 3 hours later, we put some water in the radiator overflow, which had still had some coolant in it.

 

Drove home, with heater on "0" setting, no temp issues at all on freeway or at stoplights.

 

- The headgasket isn't blown (yet I know), so finding info for a blown headgasket isn't helping.

 

- There is no coolant smell coming through our vents.

 

- The CEL is not on, has never come on.

 

- Car drives wonderfully, no hesitation, no shifting issues, no high RPM, no engine noises.

 

- Had a full tune up 4 months ago.

 

So, could this just be a thermostat problem? If so, how much could that run to fix?

 

Also, if it is a headgasket, and I get it replaced, how much should I expect? I've been finding (online) stories of $1000-$2000, but this seems to only be for blown headgaskets, which I know when they blow, they cause other issues.

 

Sorry for the novel, but wanted to get all the circumstances in. You all helped me SO MUCH with my knock sensor issue months ago I had to come back. I'm taking it in tomorrow, but want to be braced an have all info available to me as possible.

 

THANKS!

[lollydolly]

Sorry, forgot to tell you what kind of car I have!

 

2000 Subaru Outback. Yes, I know, prime candidate for the headgasket issue.

[nipper]

Thermostat would not come back down. It would stay hot, and repeatedly heat up if stuck closed.

 

HG issue you wont have any heat when the car overheats, because the combustion pressure has pushed all the coolant out of the heater ocre.

 

Has anyone bothered to pop the hood and actually LOOK at the coolant levels?

 

One cheap thing to try is replace the radiator cap. Sometimes they go bad (just age) and show the same symptons, but i bet its a HG.

 

1300-1500 is a good price range. Thye dont cause other issues as long as you stop driving the car when it over heats, or get the temp back down, and replace any lots coolant. You will also need to do a oil change at the same time.

 

nipper

[OB99W]

A 2000 Legacy should have a phase-2 EJ25, SOHC (single overhead cam) engine. While they can have HG problems, the leakage is typically external; they aren't prone to internal leakage, which is when exhaust gases force coolant out of the system, overflowing the recovery. Have you verified that the coolant isn't being lost via external HG leak? Does the cooling system have the Subaru Conditioner in it?

 

The fact that an incident occured when the heater was run but no heat was produced implies that coolant wasn't in the heater core at the time, probably due to an air pocket. That can be caused by exhaust gases displacing coolant, but a system that has lost coolant otherwise and hasn't been refilled will have the same symptom. Rather than only adding water to the coolant reservoir, the radiator itself should be checked for proper level. Of course, allow the system to cool down before opening the cap, and replenish as needed with 50/50 mixture of coolant/water, not just water.

 

Nipper's suggestion about the radiator cap is something to consider. In addition, has anyone verified that the radiator fans are running when they should be, and that the radiator isn't obstructed by dead insects, etc.?

[Rooster2]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it does sound like your head gasket is going bad, and not the water pump. The problem typically starts as you described with on again, off again over heating. Your husband knows to do the right thing by turning on the heater to help cool down the engine.

 

The probable reason the one time you turned on the heater, and it did not blow hot air for a while, is because the bad head gasket allows exhaust gas to enter the cooling system. With enough hot gas in the cooling system, the water coolant can't circulate properly, resulting in temporary no heat, and engine over heating.

 

There is a ton of info written on this forum about bad head gaskets, the sympthoms, and the fix. Access the "search" heading on this website to become highly educated on the subject. Keep us posted on getting your problem fixed.

 

Also, BTW, please don't drive your car with in an over heated state. That will absolutely destroy the engine, but I hope you already know this.

[nipper]

Just an FYI, at least once a month you should pop the hood and check the fluids in the car, as they are the car's life blood. Learn where they are, how to check them, and how to top them off. This is critical for engine oil and coolant.

 

Engine oil does get "consumed" over time, and a qt between oil changes (depending upon your interval) is nothing to be alarmed about, but should be topped off.

 

Coolant can disapear with time also if never checked. It is possible this was a one time thing (cars do that on occasion), and it should have been checked as soon as the car cooled down.

 

How many miles on this car, when was the last time the coolant was changed, and has a timing belt been done recently?

 

nipper

[edrach]

None of the previous answers are incorrect; the symptom you see could be thermostat, the fan not coming on when stopped, the water pump or other things.

 

Worst case: imminent head gasket failure; Best case, an air bubble in the coolant that needs to be purged.

 

In any event, unless you're a home mechanic I'd suggest taking it to someone you can trust who won't charge you for a head gasket you don't need but will diagnose the problem and fix it.

 

Your good fortune is you live in Seattle. You won't find a better shop than Smart Service (http://www.smart-service.com/) in Shoreline or Mukilteo. Tell them someone from the USMB sent you.

 

It's not that I don't trust dealers, but I've always searched for the independent shop that has quality mechanics. Besides they are generally less expensive.

[lollydolly]

Thanks for all the replies!

 

I did state that there was coolant in the overflow tank, probably about 1/8 full of coolant was still in there. We then filled the tank to about half full with water before returning to our house.

 

Also, when the car "overheats" (not sure this is actually correct, as the temperature only gets near "H", never goes above that) it's only for maybe 30 seconds. When it's driving it's always fine, always a little under half-way up, where it's always been.

 

The instance where heat didn't come out has only happened once, and when it happened, it lasted for maybe 3 seconds - wondering if what you all are describing is an event that happens more frequently and for a longer period of time than that?

 

As you can see, I'm really hoping this isn't the HG - $1500 is fairly un-doable for us right now! (thanks hot water tank for dying last month!)

 

Is the cost for that mostly labor? Is it because it's just difficult to get to or something?

 

Thanks again everyone! I love this forum. Hate my Subaru sometimes but love that I can get advice from this place!

[lollydolly]

Have you verified that the coolant isn't being lost via external HG leak? Does the cooling system have the Subaru Conditioner in it?

 

Do you mean just looking at my driveway and making sure there isn't fluid that's leaked out of my car? Now that's something I can do!

 

And I doubt I have the Conditioner in it. My tune-up was done by a garage, not the dealership. I've only taken the car into the dealership once, and that was years ago. But I could order the coolant from a local dealership - I've ordered parts from them before.

 

Thanks!

[lollydolly]

Also, BTW, please don't drive your car with in an over heated state. That will absolutely destroy the engine, but I hope you already know this.

 

I have to drive about 2 miles today, non-freeway. As long as the temp stays in a good place, do you think it will be ok?

 

Thanks also for your response!

[lollydolly]

In addition, has anyone verified that the radiator fans are running when they should be, and that the radiator isn't obstructed by dead insects, etc.?

 

Sorry to play the dumb girl, but do you have some quick and dirty instructions on how to know when the fan is on, and how to clear dead insects, etc?

[nipper]

Well the first really bad sign is the tank is way too high, and there is only one way they get that way.

 

Something is making i tover heat, and the short cycling sort of rules out most things mentioned.

 

Get your self a new radiator cap and the overflow back to the normal level. With some luck that may cure it. Also you need to look INTO the raidiator, not just the over flow tank.

 

What condition is the fluid in? What color, anything floating in it?

 

I'm begining to think that you have a leaky (external) HG. This is the better of the two choices. You need to keep an eye on the coolant leve and let someone look at the car. It sounds like the coolant leaked out the leaky HG, got low, and the car over heated. If it was a blown HG you would have a full overflow. Look under the car and see if the engine is wet.

 

Again how many miles are on this car, as this may be a free fix, or discounted fix at the dealer.

 

good luck

[lollydolly]

Well the first really bad sign is the tank is way too high, and there is only one way they get that way.

 

Something is making i tover heat, and the short cycling sort of rules out most things mentioned.

 

Get your self a new radiator cap and the overflow back to the normal level. With some luck that may cure it. Also you need to look INTO the raidiator, not just the over flow tank.

 

What condition is the fluid in? What color, anything floating in it?

 

I'm begining to think that you have a leaky (external) HG. This is the better of the two choices. You need to keep an eye on the coolant leve and let someone look at the car. It sounds like the coolant leaked out the leaky HG, got low, and the car over heated. If it was a blown HG you would have a full overflow. Look under the car and see if the engine is wet.

 

Again how many miles are on this car, as this may be a free fix, or discounted fix at the dealer.

 

good luck

 

1/8 of coolant in the overflow (the white tank, yes?) is too much? Crap, this is where we added the water to half way up. Did we just screw up the car? When we drove back, after filling the overflow tank with water, the car didn't have any issues.

 

The coolant was blue, looked fine...

 

I wish we could go back to horses.

 

Not sure on my mileage - I think I'm hovering around 85K. Would this be discounted through the dealer? I bought this car used about 3 years ago.

[edrach]

My tune-up was done by a garage, not the dealership. Thanks!

Just curious, but the garage wasn't Suburb (on Lake City Way), or was it?

[edrach]

1/8 of coolant in the overflow (the white tank, yes?) is too much? Crap, this is where we added the water to half way up. Did we just screw up the car? When we drove back, after filling the overflow tank with water, the car didn't have any issues.

 

The coolant was blue, looked fine...

 

I wish we could go back to horses.

 

Not sure on my mileage - I think I'm hovering around 85K. Would this be discounted through the dealer? I bought this car used about 3 years ago.

The coolant was blue??? Sounds like windshield washer fluid to me. Washer reservoir is pretty close to the firewall. Overflow for the coolant is mounted just to the right of the radiator and pretty close to the front of the car. I've never heard of blue coolant; green or orange, yes but not blue. Doesn't mean it can't be blue but it would be unusual.

[edrach]

Not sure on my mileage - I think I'm hovering around 85K. Would this be discounted through the dealer? I bought this car used about 3 years ago.

85K is pretty early to have HG issues but it's certainly possible. A friend has a '99 Legacy GT and managed to get 150K out of his 2.5L engine so you are probably okay. But it should get checked out by a reputable shop.

[lollydolly]

Just curious, but the garage wasn't Suburb (on Lake City Way), or was it?

 

Nope, West Side Imports in West Seattle.

[lollydolly]

The coolant was blue??? Sounds like windshield washer fluid to me. Washer reservoir is pretty close to the firewall. Overflow for the coolant is mounted just to the right of the radiator and pretty close to the front of the car. I've never heard of blue coolant; green or orange, yes but not blue. Doesn't mean it can't be blue but it would be unusual.

 

Sorry, it was probably green. I know it was colored - but I know that it wasn't the windshield fluid. That and oil are the only things I trust myself to fill up because I know where they are. It was the white tank next to the radiator.

[lollydolly]

85K is pretty early to have HG issues but it's certainly possible. A friend has a '99 Legacy GT and managed to get 150K out of his 2.5L engine so you are probably okay. But it should get checked out by a reputable shop.

 

Yeah, it has fairly low-ish mileage for it's age - I only drive it 3 days a week to work - 4 miles each way, but in very bad traffic, so it's running for about 45 minutes. I walk everywhere else.

 

As long as I can make it to the store tonight and back before taking it in tomorrow, I'll be happy.

 

I'll let you know what the mechanic tells my husband (oh yes, he goes in, not me for obvious reasons!)

[McDave]

Well the first really bad sign is the tank is way too high, and there is only one way they get that way.

 

Actually there are two ways - she said she filled it up halfway. It was 1/8 before. (not a problem lollydolly)

 

It does sound like you filled the windshield washer bottle though lollydolly. Edit: I see you've already answered that question.

 

I strongly recommend you check the actual level in the radiator before driving the car again. Do it while the motor is cold. Add a 50-50 mix of antifreeze and water to both the radiator and to the full mark on the coolant overflow bottle. Even if you don't have any antifreeze at least fill them with water.

 

Once your fluids are full, start the car and turn on the a/c. Both electric fans should come on (assuming you have a/c). If you don't have a/c you'll just have to get the car good and warmed up and listen for the fans to come on while watching the temp gauge to make sure it doesn't overheat first. If it starts getting hot shut the engine off and let it cool down again. The overflow bottle may empty so refill it.Restart the car and continue to warm it up again. The fans should eventually come on, though it will take longer for them to than you think it should.

 

If all is well at this point, take your short trip then let it cool down again and recheck both levels. Top off as needed and keep a close eye on the levels every day. The level in the overflow bottle probably will take a couple topoffs as air gets purged out of the system.

 

If at anytime it starts getting hot again, stop driving it and get it to a shop asap, even if it means having it towed in.

 

You really should take it in to the shop anyway to have the thermostat changed at a minimum. They should also test for leaks. Edit: Good, I see that's the plan already.

 

Good luck!

[montana105]

This is kind of confusing and I've noticed you all have stopped talking air in the system,but in my experiences if you have air in the system you don't get

hot heat.By this I mean if they are able to turn on the heater and cool the engine down then fluid is flowing thru the heater core and thru the rest of the system, I garner this experience from older vehicles before electric fans,if the system was low on fluid or your core was plugged you didn't get heat or if you did it was only enough to defrost the front windshield.Of course if the core was plugged it wouldn't cause an overheat. please explain any work done to the cooling system where air might've got into the system.

Excuse me for not remembering but after you filled the reservoir to 1/2 did it drop again and how much?

[nipper]

If your car has 85K, have some one look at it. If you are leaking form the HG area eternally, you can get it fixed for free by subaru under an exented warrenty program.

 

The first thing we need you to do is have the coolant conditioner added to the car that is sold by subaru. Just go in and buy it and add it. Then with the proof of the reciept, you can argue a new HG.

 

Someone will have the link for the program.

 

nipper

[nipper]

This is kind of confusing and I've noticed you all have stopped talking air in the system,but in my experiences if you have air in the system you don't get

hot heat.By this I mean if they are able to turn on the heater and cool the engine down then fluid is flowing thru the heater core and thru the rest of the system, I garner this experience from older vehicles before electric fans,if the system was low on fluid or your core was plugged you didn't get heat or if you did it was only enough to defrost the front windshield.Of course if the core was plugged it wouldn't cause an overheat. please explain any work done to the cooling system where air might've got into the system.

Excuse me for not remembering but after you filled the reservoir to 1/2 did it drop again and how much?

 

The heater on subarus are higher then the engine block, and they are a branch line right off the water pump. This is why the can get full of air and blow cold even when the car is over heating.

 

 

nipper

[montana105]

Okay but where does the cooling come in to play,if it's airlocked fluid won't pass by will it.I would think as described by the poster that by turning on the heater that provided enough air flow over the core to cool the engine also.Am i missing something here?

[nipper]

Okay but where does the cooling come in to play,if it's airlocked fluid won't pass by will it.I would think as described by the poster that by turning on the heater that provided enough air flow over the core to cool the engine also.Am i missing something here?

 

Residual heat, or they actually are one of the few people (and cudos for them) that read thier dashbaord regularly. They saw the needle go up (the start of the incident), they cooled off the heater core. What ever mechanisim was going on to make them loose coolant, reduced the coolant level. The next time, no coolant in core, no heat.

 

And we all know that cause and effect doesnt always work with sooby engines and head gaskets.

 

 

nipper