reeze Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 My Legacy with 202K has been very very good to me, until a few nights ago. It started running rough, and stalled on a hill. Took me a while to get it started but eventually I did and made it home. The next day I checked fluids for levels & signs of head gasket failure -- I was down a little oil & coolant but no milky stuff (I have the 2.2 engine so hopefully there's less chance of HG problems). Water temp was normal during the rough running. Now, the car starts fine & runs OK, however the rough running returned after driving it a while, so it may be related to when the engine reaches operating temp, although I am pretty sure the engine was at temp for a while and running OK before the problem started again. I've been a bit neglectful about standard maintenance stuff, so I guess I should just do as much as I can (which isn't much!)-- wires, plugs, PCV, hoses, etc...but I'd feel better if I wasn't on a complete fishing trip here. Any tips from the more knowledgeable people here would be appreciated! I should add that the check engine light has been on for a few months now (maybe longer), however I assumed it was a bad sensor since -- up to now -- the car was running great. And the local Subie dealer wants $90 just to read the codes. And I am an underemployed musician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Go to any auto parts place, auto zone, checker... and they will read the codes for Free! Once you have the codes, look them up and or post them here. The codes are the Key! Lots of post here on using only Subaru or NGK wires and NGK plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 first - pop the hood & check your plug wires - make sure all are tight - had a problem with mine running rough once & it was a loose plug wire. Next - get those codes!!! the CEL is there for a reason - you need to know what that reason is before you can begin correcting problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thanks for these replies. I had no idea that any auto parts place could read the codes! I'll get that done, and check my wires, and be back here soon after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 OK, I'm off to the local auto parts store to see if I can get the codes read. However I just returned from running an errand and sure enough the car started running rough right before I made it home. When I got home I popped the hood, engine running, and looked for anything unusual. What I saw was that the radiator fan was going. Normal, I thought, since I was parked & idling. I waited a few minutes expecting the fan to cycle off, but that never happened. The temp gauge never went above normal at any time, and the heater was blowing hot air. I thought it a little strange that the fan never turned off after at least 5 minutes. Anyway, maybe this is a clue, I have read elsewhere about the coolant temp sensor causing roughness, although I never saw an explanation of why this is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abog Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 coolant temp senders can cause this type of issue, Definitely get the codes and post them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 What I saw was that the radiator fan was going. Normal, I thought, since I was parked & idling. I waited a few minutes expecting the fan to cycle off, but that never happened. The temp gauge never went above normal at any time, and the heater was blowing hot air. I thought it a little strange that the fan never turned off after at least 5 minutes. Was you're defrost on? If the defrost is on, the fans will run. I don't think you're 95 has an OBDII port for code reading. You will need to use the read memory connectors. They are 2 black connectors, under the dash. Plug them toghether, and read the flashing codes on the dash. long blinks= tens, short blinks= ones i.e. 2 long, one short = code 21. Check back here with the code numbers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 I don't think you're 95 has an OBDII port for code reading. Every '95 Legacy I know of has OBDII! Just look for the small access panel low on the dash near your left knee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Gloyale, thanks! I was just about to head to Autozone (or, try to make it to Autozone ) when I read your post. No the defrost was not on, just regular heat. I looked under my dash. There are five loose connectors that I see: two are green, one is yellow, one is gray and one small black one. I'm going to try & attach a picture I just took. The green connectors appear to be just 1 wire, and one is male & the other female so I can plug those two together (in the pic, one of the green connectors is hidden behind the other one). I guess this means I do have the OBDII connector? Thanks again for your help. [on preview: the pic is showing up larger than the actual size, don't know why that is. Sorry if that's a problem for anybody] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Every '95 Legacy I know of has OBDII! Just look for the small access panel low on the dash near your left knee. Olnick, I just saw your reply AFTER I finished my last post. Thanks! I will try to make it to Autozone now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abog Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 1995 was the first year of OBDII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 my 95 has obd2 and reads just fine. though some stores don't even try when they hear it's a 95, so i just tell them it's a 96, and save some headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 so i just tell them it's a 96, and save some headache. Great solution, johnc! People don't realize that OBDII was mandated in '96 but a number of cars--including Subaru--had it earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 OK I made it back from Autozone Three codes came up: 1: misfire in cylinder 3 -----probable causes: -------ignition system (plugs wires, coil) -------Vacuum leak -------injector fault -------high or low fuel pressure 2: "a malfunction exists in the exhaust gas recirculation flow" "The ECM has detected too little flow on the EGR system" -----probable causes: -------blocked passage on EGR system -------failed EGR valve -------EGR solenoid faulty -------failed EGR pressure sensor where applicable 3: "The PCM has detected that the catalyst system efficiency for bank 1 is below threshold for the current engine operating conditions. (Bank 1 identifies the location of cylinder #1, while bank 2 identifies the cylinders on the opposite bank). -----probable causes: -------Catalytic converter defective (failure possibly due to #2, 3 or 4) -------(#2) Engine misfire or running condition -------(#3) Large vacuum leak -------(#4) Engine oil leakage into exhaust-valve guide seals, piston rings ******************* I'm not surprised to see the code for the cat. converter, AFAIK it's the original. The issues with vacuum leaks seem to come up with all three codes. Is there a characteristic sound of a vaccum hose that's disconnected or has a leak? I would think that I'd hear a hissing noise but that's not the case. Perhaps a hose is plugged? In any event, I bought a wire set and four plugs, and will do those today or tomorrow. If I'm real lucky, maybe my #3 spark plug was fouled and I'll be OK after replacing it. I did look into an EGR valve -- the store didn't have one but could order it, it's $180. I have no idea if this is a DIY job for someone like me -- I have not much more than a metric socket set and some wrenches (but Sears is having a sale in their tools dept. right now !) Thanks again to everyone for the very helpful information! I feel like I'm a little closer to getting this car fixed -- I hope to get another year out of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 (edited) don't install the wires unless they are subaru wires. order them online from a dealer, you'll have fewer problems. don't install the plugs unless they are listed in the subaru owners manual or they are nkg plugs. you will have fewer problems. the code for the cat could be the front o2 sensor, not the cat itself. cats do fail, but not often. you should have no problem driving this car another year. the misfier on #3 could be due to bad plug wire, move the wire to #1 and see if the cel code comes up for that one. this could be your problem. check you pcv valve. Edited March 1, 2009 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 1, 2009 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Thanks John. I can return the wires, I guess -- haven't installed them yet. The plugs are Bosch Platinum Plus. They only had 3 NKG plugs in stock, someone had filched the 4th from their last pack of 4, so I went with the Bosch. Is it really that critical? The wires are Duralast and have a lifetime warrantee. Looking again at the code for the cat -- it's hard to figure out, there is what's called an "OEM Number to Cross", which is PO420 (or is the "O" really a zero? Not sure). The slip does mention the O2 sensor under the "explanation": "The oxygen sensors monitor the catalytic converters ability to store oxygen." AFA the PCV valve, that's a pretty inexpensive part, no? Sounds like I could do that myself. Thanks again for the tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 i haven't figured out why someone would replace just one plug, but it happens. the last time i bought plugs they didn't have the nkg i wanted so i got the the nkg 'v' plug instead, same price. if ouy are going to order subaru wires, get the correct plug while you wait. i don't think the 2.2L engine is as picky as the 2.5L, and the wires will probably work when installed (although some don't) but long term you'll have headaches. i bet the wires you are running now are not subaru wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 +1 to what johnc said. Return the wires and plugs and go with NGK plugs and Subaru OEM wires. The "cat problem" is most likely a front O2 sensor problem--much cheaper solution to try first (and again, best prices are online.) PCV is super cheap and super easy to do. Make sure you remove the hose leading to the PCV and give it a thorough cleaning too. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 By the way, if you need to order Subaru parts you might try our buddy Jason in the parts department at Mike Scarff Subaru--866-528-5282. Nice guy and he always gives us the best prices I can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash321 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Also, no one has mentions the possiblity of a fuel pressure regulator that may be going bad which could be causing these issues, too much fuel can foul an EGR, cause the O2 sensor to fail creating the cat code and cause a misfire on a weak cylinder. Does your exhuast smell rich? Don't just throw parts at it.:-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 Thank you all for your quick replies and helpful tips. I need to get this done pretty soon so I may have to forgo mail ordering and just visit my local Subie dealer and hope he has the wires & plugs in stock. Reason is, I have a gig Thursday night and will be driving home at 2AM through back roads, maybe without cell reception. Although I've driven the car since the first incident, I've only been out during the day and have avoided the highways. I won't have this option in a few days. I'm hoping that new wires, plugs, and a PCV valve will do the trick. If not, it may be time to bite the bullet, bring the car to a service station and get ready to open the wallet up. I must say I'm quite surprised to hear that factory vs. 3rd-party wires can make such a difference, but I trust that the people on this forum know their stuff, so I'll return the wires & plugs I bought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reeze Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 ...$70 at my local dealer. VS $25 that I paid at Autozone for the aftermarket. That's a big difference, but I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. Still, I have to ask (and please forgive my doubting the experts here): it's a WIRE, a few connectors and a rubber boot. What is different about the genuine Sub version? If it's a matter of build quality and longevity, well, I'm not as concerned as most people might be since my car has 202K on it and I drive about 30-35K /yr. I don't expect to have this car in two or three years, maybe sooner! Of course it doesn't owe me a thing, I bought it about 5 years ago with 65K for $3200 (it's actually the subject of one of my first threads on this board, still on here somewhere!). If a $25 set of wires will get me going and last the remaining life of the car then I think I'd like to save the $$. Yet there is this strong consensus here about not using aftermarket wires, where does it come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Experience. But it's your money and your choice. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
952.2LX Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I've had no problems with aftermarket plugs and wires on my 95 Impreza with 250k miles. I've replaced them several times and To me its just not worth the extra 50 bucks everytime to use OEM wires. Now if I had a newer soob with maybe 50k miles, yea I might consider OEM wires. Just my 2 cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 One of the reasons you're looking for answers here is experience. And experience has told you OEM(Subaru). Frankly I've found the 2.5's to be much more moody about wires. Often on the 2.2's the aftermarkets seem to work on. The cars I redo usually have aftermarket on them. On the 2.5's I only go Subaru. If I needed new wires I'd do OEM or perhaps try the NGK's on a 2.2. But that's what I'd limit my choices to. You can now make you're own informed decision. Worst case you'll need to buy wires twice. Then you can add to the experience here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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