bicycle_ben Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 so the last couple of times ive driven my subie its died randomly while im driving it. i have an 81 wagon and the wiring is a mess in it. symptoms are as follows but happen in no particular order: the motor is running and the volt meter shows 12 volts instead of the normal 16ish volts BUT the charge light (not charging) is NOT on. the motor is running but all the idiot lights you normally see when the motor is not running are showing. the motor dies but was able to re start several times. motor turns over but will not run. it seems to me that if it was a bad alternator the charge light would come on and the motor would continue to run off of the charge remaining in the battery. the fact that the battery was still full enough to turn over the engine easily means to me that the alternator is still working and there is more than enough juice in the battery to get spark. could a dead fuse do this to me ? maybe whatever wire tells the idiot lights to turn off when the motor is running also control the spark ? its 2am here and i dont care any more. ill get up tomorrow morning and see if someone else has any bright ideas. hopefully some crack heads havnt broken into it where it sits in portland... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 The charge light doesn't come "on" until the voltage drops to 8 volts or less. Dash lights "on" when they should be "off" is sign of bad diodes in altenator. Wiring issues would make troubleshooting the random "engine dies" and "won't start" issues extremely difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 Agreed - your alternator is putting out AC voltage due to a bad diode bridge. Replace the alt. The AC may have killed something else as well - you'll have to replace the alt and troubleshoot from there. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) thanks! ill pull the alternator here this morning, get it tested and get a new one in there if its no good. hopefully this takes care of the issue and i dont have to go wire hunting ... i just had a thought - the old alternators dont have the voltage regulators built in. is the alternator bad or is the volt regulator bad ? Edited May 2, 2009 by bicycle_ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I think in the '82 the alternator has the built in regulator... not sure about '81.... Having all the lights on the dash light up at once is a classic sign of the alternator being bad (on mine, it was the main power wire fell off.... ooops). But, the car kept running fine, even with 7.5 volts at the battery... The symptom was that it would not crank because the battery no longer had enough power to run the starter motor. But, if you kept it running, it kept running.... at least for a while (like a day or two before I ran the battery dead enough that it stopped starting...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihscout54 Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 1981 has the externally regulated unit, the 1982 is internal. If you are just reading the gauge you need to put a meter on it. Ide take the alternator to a parts store and have it tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indrid cold Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 a bad distributor module can create this same type of engine failure.. run, not run etc... as with a coil, bad battery, alternator etc... let us know what you find..... my .o2 cents.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 the cap, rotor and spark plug wires are new ish so i dont think they are at fault. i put a new regulator in there this afternoon and it fired right up. the battery was charging and all the idiot lights were off. so hopefully this fixed it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Just switch it to an internally regulated unit. There's been posts on doing this before - a search for them would be your best bet as it's been years since I've messed with a pre-82. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 You stated that the engine would still start up after it died. This to me means something other than the battery or charging system is at fault. I would suspect the fuel pump relay or possibly the ignition system is the cause of this trouble. If the trouble happens again check for spark getting to the plugs. Spraying starter fluid into the intake will show up a fuel problem. Other electrical possibilities are the ignition relay and switch. Also make sure the fusible link connections are snug and making good connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) yeah it ran fine for 2 x 2 mile trips and 2 x 20 mile trips after which it started to die again. i pulled over and then re started it so i was able to limp it off the freeway. I ended up pushing it into a gas station. another friend of mine also suggested the ignition module but they are between 140 and 240 bucks so ill fiddle with other things first. i checked all my connections along the ignition wiring as best i could. everything seemed to be in good shape, tight and no corrosion. ill have to see if i can talk someone into going out there with me so i can pull a plug and see if im getting spark or not and bring a can of starter fluid to test for fuel. now that im thinking about it, the fact that it has lit up all the idiot lights while running means it must have something to do with the ignition wiring. Edited May 4, 2009 by bicycle_ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 The warning lights are tied to the alternator circuit. You may need to replace the alternator. But the wiring between the alternator and the regulator needs to be checked for a problem before that is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottycocktail Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Morning, hoping ya'll can lend your two cents here; I have a 92 Loyale wagon, 4x4, 5 speed. I came out to it being dead late last week, i got a jump and got it running, but after running it for a while and turning the car off, i needed a jump again. So i bought a brand new battery on Wed. Friday night it seemed a little weak while starting the car a few times in a short period of time. Sat. morning it wouldn't turn over. I got a jump and started driving to the garage, but it died again on the way there, just loses all power. Three more attempts and the same result, runs for about 30 seconds then loses power. However, the last time it sputtered power while losing it, almost like a belt was slipping. I just dropped 900$ on the car for new timing belts and oil sealant work and don't know if i should spend more $$ at this point. Any diagnosis out there? Any advice would be greatly helpful. Thank you. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 What is the battery voltage while it's running? (on a digital voltmeter, not the dash guage) Sounds kind of like the alternator is not charging... however, that should not cause it to stall... could be multiple issues. Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottycocktail Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 Z, Thanks for the input. I don't know what the gauge was running at. The "charge" light has been on, but i think that is a fuse issue. It was on prior to replacing the battery but i assumed it would go off when the new battery was installed, the dash gauge was reading right about mid-meter, maybe just a little shy of that. Could the battery be bad? Does that make any sense at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) Morning, hoping ya'll can lend your two cents here; I have a 92 Loyale wagon, 4x4, 5 speed. Any diagnosis out there? Any advice would be greatly helpful. Thank you. Scott It does sound like the alternator isn't working at all. Charge the battery up using a battery charger. Then start the car and check the voltage on the wires going to the alternator. They all should be close to the battery voltage. Make sure the charge warning light turns on when you turn the key from Off to ON. If that light doesn't work the alternator will not get any exciter voltage needed to start the charging process. Edit: I see you stated the warning light was on. Replace the alternator, it is bad. Edited May 4, 2009 by Cougar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottycocktail Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 thanks Cougar. anyone know what i am looking at spending for a new alternator? i have a great garage, but i like to enter in an educated manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 (edited) Ditto to cougar, These old subs don't take much to run, so a bad alt but a fully charged battery can get you pretty far. (I should know ) I would replace the alt with something bigger... (100a GM alt swap anyone?) Or just do a standard alt if you want to stay stock. But it sounds just like a bad alt. But back to the main topic... I think it might be in the ignition, as you have suspected. I would go to a junkyard to find a new ignition, they're usually still good in there. Oh, and either have it rekeyed or get the key from the junkyard, if they still have it. (or just use your old one if it works! ) Twitch Edited May 4, 2009 by Twitch de la Brat I'm a moron... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 But back to the main topic... I think it might be in the ignition, as you have suspected. I would go to a junkyard to find a new ignition, they're usually still good in there. Oh, and either have it rekeyed or get the key from the junkyard, if they still have it. (or just use your old one if it works! ) Twitch you are talking about replacing the ignition switch - like the little circular switch behind the key? if thats the case ive already done that and its all nice heavy coper wire which shouldnt cause this problem. the fact that the idiot lights come on means that the circuit is still connected. i dont have a key, just some toggle switches and a push button ok so what tells the idiot lights on the dash to turn off when the motor is running? If a running engine takes more current than an ignition on stalled engine, then a trickle drain on the battery means turn all the idiot lights on, but a big drain means turn just the charge light on? what thing in the wiring decides when to turn the idiot lights on? i think this is where im going to make progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I would suggest first testing resistance through the pickup coil of the distributor. Measure resistance between the 2 wires, and then wiggle and tug the wires a bit and see if it changes. If it ever goes to infinite resistance, there is a problem, and you need a disty. If not, I would be highly suspect of the stupid *rev sensor* or *FPCU* units that won't pass through power for the fuel pump unless an ignition pulse (tachometer) is present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 I would be highly suspect of the stupid *rev sensor* or *FPCU* units that won't pass through power for the fuel pump unless an ignition pulse (tachometer) is present. and the plot thickens! i figured something like that would be in there to shut off the fuel if the car wasnt getting spark (bit of a safety issue if its just squirting fuel all over and stuff) ill try and get my dad to come out with his truck and drag this poor thing back to my house so i can fight with it somewhere other than a gas station parking lot ill check resistance on stuff and play with wires tomorrow morning if all goes well. does anyone know how the car decides to turn off and on the idiot lights on the dash? they are all on when the ignition is on but the car is not running and then all go off when the car is running. how does the car know its running? it cant be the alternator charging because if that was the case all the idiot lights would come on when it dies instead of just the charge light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 does anyone know how the car decides to turn off and on the idiot lights on the dash? they are all on when the ignition is on but the car is not running and then all go off when the car is running. how does the car know its running? it cant be the alternator charging because if that was the case all the idiot lights would come on when it dies instead of just the charge light. Charge light goes off when alt is charging. IIRC the brake light is tied in and does the same. The Oil light (if equipped) goes off with oil pressure. I think you are unnessecarily worrying about the idiot lights. If you don't get them when you turn the key on, you've got no power to coil. But if you get them with key on/eng. off.......and then they go off when running, then that is all normal. I would focus on testing standard reasons for stalling/dieing. Ignition coil, pickup coil, fuel pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Charge light goes off when alt is charging. IIRC the brake light is tied in and does the same. The Oil light (if equipped) goes off with oil pressure. I think you are unnessecarily worrying about the idiot lights. If you don't get them when you turn the key on, you've got no power to coil. But if you get them with key on/eng. off.......and then they go off when running, then that is all normal. I would focus on testing standard reasons for stalling/dieing. Ignition coil, pickup coil, fuel pump. I agree that it sounds like it sounds more like a fuel/ignition issue, not a charging issue... however I've also never had the charge light come one to indicate a bad alternator/charging circuit... they ALL come on -- just like with the key on but the engine not running. Don't know why this is exactly, but it's the behavior I've seen. If you have a voltmeter, it's easy to rule that out, though. Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 if you get them with key on/eng. off.......and then they go off when running, then that is all normal. I would focus on testing standard reasons for stalling/dieing. Ignition coil, pickup coil, fuel pump. its just that my car has occasionally found a state where the engine is running but the idiot lights are still on my thought process is that figuring out what tells those lights to turn off when the car is running will lead me to the source of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bicycle_ben Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 my dad came with his truck this morning to tow me home. i decided to try and drive the car home on its own power just for fun and it fired right up. i made it about 4 miles down the road when it did the thing where the idiot lights come on but the car is still running. i pulled over and turned the car off because it was a good place to hook up a tow and i didnt want to wait to see how long it would run before it died. now that its home i can pull things apart and test for resistance and hopefully i can catch it in the broken state and find the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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