Loyal Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Hey USMB, I was interested in this 1993 Subaru Loyale I found on the internet but I am hesitant because of the price tag and the fact that it is not original paint (sticker price shows "crimson pearl metallic). What do you guys think? Is the price justified for a Loyale with this many miles? I need your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyeights Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I personally would not even touch something like this "sight-unseen". I would have to inspect this with my own hand, or have it inspected by someone else that is qualified to see if it's legit. Is it worth the price? Is it what you want and can you afford it? If so, then you may have just answered your own question. We have all paid too much for things that we wanted badly. In this case I would verify that the value is there, and that it isn't just another carefully covered up mess. It could have hidden damage. A car salesperson is RARELY your friend... There are MANY nice Subaru's around the country to look at. If this isn't it don't sweat it. The "right car" for you will always come along when you aren't looking for it, and when you don't quite have enough money. Ain't life a kick? Good Luck! Edited February 15, 2015 by Crazyeights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Hi Crazyeights, thanks for the reply. I was going to see it myself but this Northeastern weather hasn't exactly been kind enough to let the roads be clear and traffic free for a 7-8 hour drive . I was just wondering IF this car was in perfect mechanical and electrical condition, what would the price be at this mileage? I understand what you mean, a car should be sentimental, but it should also be economical. Affording it isn't the question, it's more about if I could actually justify the purchase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyeights Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) Cars don't sit well AT ALL. Best case this IS the perfect low mileage car and you fall in love with it. If it is far away and it has been in storage it will need a fair amount of maintenance and work just to "wake it up". The seals and gaskets will all begin to leak shortly after it is warmed up. By now even the valve cover gaskets are hard enough to snap in half. Ask me how I know, lol. Seriously it is a beautiful car. Just go into it with your eyes open. Bring a trailer or back up plan if you go a long way to pick it up. What about finding a tech local to the car to do a third party safety check? Should be $100 - $150 or so. Well worth it on a $7000.00 purchase if you ask me. Good Luck and please let us know if you pick it up! [EDIT] It seems like there are lots of photos. I'll admit that I lost interest after about 50 exterior shots as I wasn't the one buying it lol. Edited February 14, 2015 by Crazyeights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two85s Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Wow...amazing car, terrific photos of every bit....pretty much, .......cherry Subaru with extemely low miles. Doesn't seem like they are hiding anything. They say, "We have replaced Valves,Lifters, installed New Timing and replaced all of the Hoses. ". Who is we? Are there receipts for the work? Is it warranted work? would be my questions? Looks like a Subaru museum piece to me. Everthing looks factory fresh..like perfect..or, "Tits", ..as they say...lol. Be tough for me to beat it up offroading. I take mine sometimes on narrow trails between rocks and sharp desert plants and I just charge right through because my car is not a show car. .....To me that's a show quality Subaru. As far as price goes.. it's a beauty....if you got the money? I'd like to see how high an auction would go for that car. With all that said ....my best guess is $3-3500 would be the high bid in an auction....even for a Subaru nut, like me. The HIGH "Dealer" retail value for a car in that condition is $2700-2900. Thanks for posting it....very cool Subaru. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Yeah, from the start $7000 i knew is unreasonable even for MUSEUM quality..... if I ever make the trip i'd want to pick it up at 5000 tops. I'll let the listing be purchased and know it wasn't meant to be or maybe the price will drop after some relistings ) thank you for your opinion two85s truly looked like a show piece!! definitely a stock dd or show room car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two85s Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Yeah correct, I'd say for a real nut, with no money worries, your right .....5K tops. Sure. What Crazyeights said too...rubber, seals, plastic, etc ....get old for sure!!!!!!! That car looks like it was in a nice dry garage, wharehouse, etc for most of its life. .....A beauty for sure. I would message the eBay seller with 3/4 of your highest amount and see what they say, if you are serious. I'll be watching the listing on eBay. Let us know what you find out.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 won't budge past 7 so I hope it drops on its own. Car is truly a beauty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I would only purchase it if intended to be a show car. As others have said, the gaskets and seals are 23 (car was actually manufactured in 1992) years old. Mine is also a 1993 and I am the original owner (DD still), so I think i know how these cars age. It was sure fun to see that invoice sticker. Brings back memories. If you had any inklings of buying it as a driver, get that idea out of your mind. It would spring leaks left and right. But as a museum quality show car, perhaps. And for the love of God don't buy it and "mod" it. This is what we call a "survivor" and should be respected as such. An artifact of a different time. As for the price, who knows. I mean they will never make "square" cars again, ever. They are simply not aerodynamic enough to meet tough CAFE standards. If you got $7000 lying around and the means to store and maintain a show car, the go for it. A guy with millions who has an affinity for Loyales might not care much about $7000. A kid saving for college working min wage probably better pass on this one. ETA: Also there should be two keys for that car ( I see only one in the pic). One is a valet key. Edited February 14, 2015 by MR_Loyale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two85s Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Wow, I could see a collector (of which there may be .....none) paying 7K to put in in a showroom or ....really cool in the lobby area of a Subaru dealership on a simulated offroad display...freakin stellar way to pay homage to their Brand's roots. Or maybe some kickass retro rally car bulider would work their magic on it.....(not without a paying customer). Putting it up as an auction sale would be the way to find its worth, but frankly 10 day auctions aren't long enough for people in many cases. Cool Subaru. Take care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 MR_Loyale thanks for the comment, a veteran of these cars opinion means alot. As to what you've said, it's sad that it can't be a beautiful completely stock dd. This car truly is a survivor, I would've kept it that way. I'm planning on moving on from this but it was a good find Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) I may be totally off here but I see red flags in that ad. First off the invoice sticker mentions nothing about the pushbutton four wheel drive which clearly this Loyale has. It says it is "Front Wheel Drive" in the invoice sicker. I don't think that is the original sticker at all but rather one from a FWD like mine. Plus the price is almost exactly what mine cost when I bought it. Surely the pushbutton 4WD version would have cost extra. In general the undercarriage looks to have way more grease than the use of 18K miles would suggest. It has shot CV boots which which suggests usage in excess of 18K. And I have never seen any Loyale with odometer and trip wheels that were yellow on the last wheel. Finally most 4WD Loyales I have seen with mud flaps that are stock say 4WD on them. I have never seen a Loyale with original paint that has so much orange peel. There should be a color code sticker on the driver side strut tower (still got mine). The coolant bottle should have a yellow sticker on it. For those reasons alone I am suspicious of this ad. Definitely would want an in-person inspection. Edited February 14, 2015 by MR_Loyale 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 trying to decode the VIN says it is 1800cc 4WD 5MT I think, just the codes for its spfi are not in my 86 manual, the Left or Right hand drive indicator is not a L or an R ?? D might be spfi code ? the last four or five letters confuse when comparing 86 manual data. The AWD in their descriptor code says they are a little confused between 4WD and AWD. Very nice looking car gone up to 7600 when I last looked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two85s Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I may be totally off here but I see red flags in that ad. First off the invoice sticker mentions nothing about the pushbutton four wheel drive which clearly this Loyale has. It says it is "Front Wheel Drive" in the invoice sicker. I don't think that is the original sticker at all but rather one from a FWD like mine. Plus the price is almost exactly what mine cost when I bought it. Surely the pushbutton 4WD version would have cost extra. In general the undercarriage looks to have way more grease than the use of 18K miles would suggest. It has shot CV boots which which suggests usage in excess of 18K. And I have never seen any Loyale with odometer and trip wheels that were yellow on the last wheel. Finally most 4WD Loyales I have seen with mud flaps that are stock say 4WD on them. I have never seen a Loyale with original paint that has so much orange peel. There should be a color code sticker on the driver side strut tower (still got mine). The coolant bottle should have a yellow sticker on it. For those reasons alone I am suspicious of this ad. Definitely would want an in-person inspection. All super GREAT points .....Mr.Loyale. And I have to say more USMB members may chime in and collectively add to this ebay item's credibility or help expose it for what it may be. "In general the undercarriage looks to have way more grease than the use of 18K miles would suggest. ...Mr. Loyale" I didn't think about it at first glance, but yes I would agree completely. Very good point. 1) My frame of reference is only a 1985 and my wagon has the front and rear stock mudflaps with "4WD" on the rear ones. 2) Also my wagon is manual D/R 5 speed not a push button. I don't know what years the D/R vs. Push Buttons vs. AWD changes were made, but this "irregularity" in the photos/ ad seems like it would be easily settled. 3) The last wheel(s) being yellow on the trip/odometer is of HUGE importance and may be the smell eminating from the can of rotten worms being opened on this potential "museum quality 18K Subaru" eBay item. I am regulary impressed with the knowledge the USMB members have about these Subarus. The car sure looks great in many ways,at a glance and to the novice, and I like stock cars being kept stock unless necessary. The high price being asked is dependent on the claims made about the vehicle being true. If the claims are lies, ...they are lies. And the sellers are liers and frauds who are trying to cheat someone out of money in trade for a misrepresented item. The eBay sellers should be exposed if this is the case. If they are legit.....great. Awesome Subaru. Incredibly low miles, super-freakin-cherry survivor Subaru. Virtuous road ahead. However, if USMB (Mr. Loyale primarily) has cracked a valid can of worms here....then I bet that eBay ad comes down pretty quick. So get sceen shots and dowmload the photos, etc. while they are available. Hopefully.....more to come on this.. All the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyeights Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 I wanted to download the photos as a reference, but too many for me to tackle today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two85s Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 That seller also has a remarkably clean wagon 1992 Subaru Loyale GL-10 4X4 wagon for sale for $4500 also. ....They know how to detail an engine...that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 This dealership sells many old Subarus among other cars. In my experience, when they initially list something, they list it very high. If it doesn't sell, they relist it lower. And lower. I've seen cars they've asked for 8k initially actually sell for around 5. That Loyale is perfect. It's also been worked on by the dealership because the valves were frozen, if I recall correctly (from sitting) That means it should have some new seals in it. Long story short, in MY opinion that car is with 4,750. Anything less than that would be a deal, and anything up to a grand over that would be the high end for just the right person. As far as leaks from sitting, it may happen, it may not. I bought an 87 with 46k on it in 2012. Roughly the same amount of non use as this. I bought it and drove it across the country. Twice. Without replacing a thing except the water pump after the first trip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 +1 The car has clearly been repainted and not well. The color on the invoice does not match it or the color code so I doubt seriously that is the invoice for that car. I do believe the color on the car is original. Having repainted a few cars and some of those being complete color changes, I can tell you red is one of the worst colors to cover and the cost to strip the entire car and repaint would have been close to $6k at that time. The tenths wheel on the odometer was white. The color it is now is yellowing caused by UV damage from sitting in the sun. Cali, remember? I think the car sat outside the whole time and the paint was shot, hence the repaint and plastic fading. That's not grease on the under carriage. That is a rust inhibitor common to aftermarket application companies of that time period. Valves 'frozen' in place? Uhhhh.... Again, Cali. Very unlikely. I've bought cars that sat in a field for 20 years in Montana and fired them up after about an hour of tinkering. So why did they replace them? The gaskets issue has already been brought up. I can almost guarantee that car will need a complete reseal within a few hundred miles of driving. One of two things come to mind. Either they didn't get the real story hear, or they are FOS. Maybe both. I would be leery of this car and certainly wouldn't pay more than $5k IF everything else checked out pristine. IE: Look for rust under the dash, under the seats, pull back carpet in the trunk and look there. Was this thing in a flood or storm of some sort? Don't get me wrong, it's a clean, beautiful car but too many things don't add up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 On second look, there's something wrong here, the trunk has a Subaru GL badge. That's incorrect. If it's a 93 (which it seems to be because if the retractable seat belts) that trunk should have a badge that just says SUBARU. They dropped the GL in 89. Either that trunk lid was replaced, or the badge was. I'd question that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Further, definitely fishy. That car isn't what they're advertising it as. I'm half compelled to drive over there and question them about it on the spot. Shame too, they always seemed very reputable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Just got off the phone with somebody there familiar with the car. Very brief conversation. One memorable quote about the trunk emblem, the gentleman informed me that a replaced trunk decklid does not mean he can't describe the vehicle as mint. I retract what I said about the car being with up to 5 +k. Now I'd say it's only worth around 3. Maybe a little more if it comes with a warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonas Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 AutoCheck found 9 records on this vehicle. I didn't pay the 20 bucks for the details, but something else to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skishop69 Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Good catch! I was so focused on the crappy paint job, I didn't notice. If you're that close, I'd be interested to hear what they say when you start to question, point things out and pick it apart. Politely, of course. Perhaps use the voice recorder or video on your cell? I normally don't think things similar to this are a big deal, but there are just too many things wrong that people have found just in the pics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonas Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Are we getting closer to "LIFTITEJIT!"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two85s Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 ........Thanks for the input. I would never accuse a seller of lying unless it was proven, yet that proof is sometimes never found or is covered up intentionally, for obvious reasons, not innocently. A dishonest seller relies on the ignorance of the buyer....that's not USMB. This seller, right now, has a number of remarkably low mile vehicles for sale. They have a 87 Volvo with 97K miles for sale. If one looks at the sellers recent "sold" items: still more remarkably low mile vehicles sold. As a seller/ reputable used car dealer, that's what you want right? Find extremely low mile clean survivors for cheap, detail them, then sell them for a premium.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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