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Auto transmission slippage - 2001 Outback
Posted 22 January 2005 - 11:52 AM
I'm trying to deal with an interesting problem, and after checking out the previous posts, I don't recall seeing anything precisely like this. But with some similar problems, I think I have an idea on what's going on here, and would like some feedback.
On Thursday, I took my vehicle (2001 Outback, auto transmission, 87,000 miles/139,200 km) in to my favorite local independent garage for an oil change, tire rotation, and to have the transmission fluid changed as well. This was the first time for trans fluid change. After having all of this work done, I noticed that the transmission was slipping. I immediately returned and spoke to the mechanic about this. He stated that the service materials indicated that it would take a little while for the circuitry to reset and it would then stop. That didn't happen, and I returned on Friday morning to speak with them about this. After test driving the vehicle several times, the mechanic stated that it appeared to be improving. We discussed this further, and thought that it might be a case where the reset process simply took longer than we originally thought. Driving to the office wasn't too bad, although it still slipped to some degree. Well, that was a nice theory, but events would prove us wrong.
I stopped by my girlfriend's house last night for dinner, and when driving home, noticed that the level of slippage was just terrible. It really bogged down on a hill next to her house. The same thing happened when driving in to the office this morning. Since her house and my office are both about two miles away from my home, and with temperatures very low in this area right now, the car didn't really warm up to speak of, either last night or this morning.
I've spoken to the mechanics this morning, and they don't have a ready explanation, either, but are willing to do what's necessary to make it right. When the transmission fluid was changed, the exterior filter was not replaced. With the miles on the car, I have the suspicion that the fluid change disturbed some of the sludge that built up on the bottom of the pan so that there are some partial blockages within the various passages in the transmission. Due to those, pressure is not what it should be, and the transmission slips badly until things warm up and the problem eases at that point but does not go away. I am not aware of any leaks or problems with the seals. From previous posts, I think what needs to be done is for the transmission to be power flushed, and for the external transmission filter to be replaced.
So far, this has been a fairly trouble free car, and it has been a good choice all the way around. What are your thoughts on this attempt at diagnosis?
Posted 22 January 2005 - 07:53 PM
I had one quickie oil change place drain my AT instead of the crankcase, so watch out! Fortunately, I always check the oil and AT whenever ANYONE works on my car.
Posted 23 January 2005 - 11:52 PM
Here is the problem, the ATF is supposed to be changes every 30000 miles in subarus. You problem is a classical example of AT failing after fluid change after long time of neglect. Either change regularly or not at all. Try adding additives increasing friction. Dirt in your old fluid served as this "friction modifier" proping worn clutches.
On Thursday, I took my vehicle (2001 Outback, auto transmission, 87,000 miles/139,200 km) in to my favorite local independent garage for an oil change, tire rotation, and to have the transmission fluid changed as well. This was the first time for trans fluid change.
Posted 24 January 2005 - 02:15 PM
First, I have checked the transmission fluid levels, and it does appear to be low. In fact, other than some trace amounts along the edge of the dipstick, it doesn't even register on the stick. I called the garage, and they stated that they put around 2.5 quarts in the transmission, since their data indicates that unless the pan is dropped, that is all that is needed when the drain plug is removed and it's drained that way. I can't find anything that says that, even though they claim that it came from the owner's information, so color me skeptical.
Second, on page 7-14 of my owner's manual, it states:
"Immediately after a disconnected battery is reconnected or ATF is replaced, you may feel that the automatic transmission operation is somewhat unusual.
This results from erasure or invalidation of data the on-board computer has collected and stored in memory to allow the transmission to shift at the most appropriate times for the current condition of your vehicle. Optimized shifting will be restored as the vehicle continues to be driven for a while."
I'm going to put some ATF fluid (Dexron III) in this afternoon on the way home. I have a two mile commute, thankfully. From checking things out, I believe that this has to be done through the dipstick tube.
I've told the garage that I HOPE that there's no transmission damage, hinting that they will have to pony up some money for a transmission shop to replace/repair the transmission if they've screwed this up.
I am planning on taking this back to them and standing in the service bay to have them do a complete pan out draining and external filter replacement.
Thanks for the feedback.
Posted 24 January 2005 - 02:28 PM
Posted 24 January 2005 - 03:37 PM
That should have been the first thing they checked when you brought it back the first time
By any chance is this "garage " one of those LUBE places?
Posted 24 January 2005 - 03:59 PM
I'm kind of concerned about the condition of the transmission, also. I'm wondering if it might be advisable to have it checked out either at the local Subaru dealership, or an independent transmission repair facility. I'm inclined to go with the transmission shop, since that's all that they do. We'll find out. I'm going to leave the office early and top off the transmission and see just how many quarts low we're talking about.
This drives home the fact that this is the only vehicle that I have, and should it be down for any period of time, I'm stuck, unless I either walk to work or use my bicycle. Here in the Midwest, that's not always fun in the winter. I've been toying with the idea of a second car, and this might be time to check into that. A late model low mileage WRX might be a fun second vehicle.
Posted 24 January 2005 - 05:12 PM
1. When you went back to the mechanic with a slipping tranny, he didn't even check the ATF level. Very, very bad. For anyone with the intelligence of a tapeworm checking the AT fluid level would be a no brainer.
2. You didn't check the ATF level. Get used to checking the fluid levels on YOUR car. BTW, have you checked the front diff oil level? ALWAYS check the oil and ATF when anyone has worked on YOUR car.
3. Given the short distance, you PROBABLY didn't damage the AT. Anyway, it would be very hard to prove that any damage was caused by this particular shop.
I like Subarus. But I will tell you this. It is very easy to do a lot of expensive damage to these cars through ignorance or neglect. Read and understand the owner's manual. Know how to have the car towed. And always check the fluid levels when anyone, including a Subaru dealership, work on your car. Nuff said.
Posted 27 January 2005 - 11:43 AM
I purchased some Dexron III and put 2 quarts in before I hit the low indicator mark for a cold engine.
Secondly, I made an immediate appointment for a very well-regarded local transmission shop to do an inspection and complete fluid replacement.
They did so, and mentioned that the front differential was full of transmission fluid. The transmission and the differential appeared to be alright, and they felt confident in clearing the codes.
Clearly, the local garage was used to working with Detroit designs, where the auto transmission dipstick and filler are on the passenger side of the engine. They've done various oil changes, balancing, alignment, tire changes, and brake rotor machining on my Outback, with no problems. This has been the first real glitch I've encountered with them.
I've spoken to them about this, and they were properly apologetic. I will get a refund of what I paid them for the transmission fluid change, as well as what I paid for the differential fluid change.
I would say that Dude has given some good advice, albeit in somewhat stern fashion. It's been a good learning experience, and hopefully others will get something out of this, too.
Thanks for all the advice!
Posted 27 January 2005 - 05:36 PM
Posted 23 August 2016 - 07:28 PM
I have a 2001 Outback wagon VDC 3.0 Bought new in 2001. Has 51,000 miles. Lately, the trans seems to be slipping a little: going into 1st and Reverse. Putting it into reverse results in loud clattering noise and vibrations. I cannot find the dipstick where others have said it is to be found, and my Manual says NOT ONE WORD about the transmission. (!?). All thoughts and suggestions appreciated. The noisy reverse only started immediately after I had added rngine oil.
Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:08 PM
Edited by wtdash, 23 August 2016 - 10:14 PM.
Posted 23 August 2016 - 10:13 PM
HI and Welcome,
You 'bumped' an 11 year old thread. Usually better to start a new thread.
In this case, I'm wondering if you got your drain plugs and/ or dipsticks mixed up. There are @ least 3 near the front on most Automatic-equipped Subarus:
- Front Differential gear oil
- Transmission fluid/ATF
Attached is the Owners Manual section that includes Automatic Transmission info.
And that YELLOW dipstick is for checking the fluid level, in the attached pic.
Edited by wtdash, 23 August 2016 - 10:16 PM.
Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:52 AM
adding engine oil and hearing a noise would be coincidental only, it wolud be impossible for that to causes issues unless you dropped tools in the engine bay or something other htan oil went down the oil fill spout.
1. check fluid level - google pictures of dipstick location if you can't find it. it's down below the starter, drivers side, under the brake fluid reservoir/master cylinder.
2. change fluid
3. check for ATF leaks
Posted 24 August 2016 - 11:49 AM
It's a 2001 Outback 3.0 VDC wagon, bought new in MA on 9/11/2001 (!!)
Has 51,000 miles. Maintained indifferently, I'm afraid. I have been
unable even to find the ATF yellow dipstick, so the other two you
mentioned are total mysteries. Because trans seems to be slipping I
thought I should check th ATF and perhaps Diff fluid too. As reported,
all of a sudden it makes a clattering sound with vibrations when putting
it into reverse. At same moment that happened, it started to idle
roughly if in gear, but not if in neutral. I've never experienced a
slipping transmission in any car, so I say it SEEMS to be slipping.
Actually when starting from a dead stop the car hesitates (feels like a
bubble) if I apply very little throttle. If I apply more gas, that
"hiccup" isn't felt. (?)
I'm eager to see the manual you uploaded for me, and am wondering why my manual does not mention the transmission AT ALL. (?)
Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:04 PM
Finally found the ATF dipstick. I was looking for a yellow ring, but it was black from grime and was nearly invisible. Fluid was as dark as motor oil and was on dipstick way above all the markings shown in diagram (checked cold). Do I wipe stick, as with engine oil, and reinsert to check the level?
Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:16 PM
I've never had luck checking it 'cold' - it's always wrong, but not sure you should drive it 'til it's warm and check it, per the manual.
But, yes, wipe it clean, reinsert and check again. There should be a 'cold' mark on the dipstick.
Edited by wtdash, 24 August 2016 - 04:17 PM.
Posted 24 August 2016 - 08:08 PM
transmission is about the most expensive repair you can get into - i'd be changing the transmission and front differential fluids no matter what at this point.
yes - wipe stick and reinsert. the readings are wonky and hard to get ;ike he said - but a cursory glance should be telling. a "little bit low" isn't going to slip. if it's not reading on the stick or barely touhing - then that's proably your slippage and it needs to not be driven or started until that's remedied. low/no fluid will destory internal components and require another transmission.
if the fluid is grossly black - that's problematic as well.
i'd be changing the transmission and front differential fluids.
Posted 24 August 2016 - 08:09 PM
also check the transmission pan - if it's dented it can restrict fluid flow into the pick up.
Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:46 PM
Went to trans shop today They'll work on it tomorrow. Fluid was BLACK, so a change definitely needed. Quoted me $159 (lowest price in my area actually) if filter and gasket are not exotic and high priced items from Subaru dealer. I went to NAPA and AutoZone: both quoted me $8.99. Both said it takes a "spin-on" type filter with gasket attached. I am hopeful.
Should I ask them to check differential fluid? If it needs to be changed, what might that cost?
Edited by landolphe, 25 August 2016 - 09:48 PM.
Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:51 PM
I noticed that cost of ATF change quoted/cited in various places on web of $80-100 are way off. In my area prices range from $159-$298!
Posted 25 August 2016 - 10:20 PM
That 'spin-on' filter is NOT the same as an oil filter...there's a reason it's more expensive - READ THIS. And actually it's designed to last the life of the trans, from everything I've read....but since you've not been 'paying to play' w/your maintenance history, it probably should be replaced w/the Subaru part.
And make sure the Trans shop checks your FRONT and REAR differential gear oil........
Edited by wtdash, 25 August 2016 - 10:22 PM.
Posted 26 August 2016 - 08:13 AM
Subaru calls the spin on filters life time parts. Not a bad idea to replace but you don't have anything to gain by replacing it now either.
Don't let them replace the internal filter and gasket - that's pointless. They're just big mesh screens like in your window screen at home (except they're metal). They're never clogged and if they were you're about to need a new transmission anyway. Risk to repair is probably greater than the risk to leave it alone, completely pointless. This might not be true of other manufacturers, so a mechanic might not know Subaru's enough to understand that. i think that's why they're replaced more than necessary.
ATF is a closed system with no vectors for particulate intrusion like an engine has. a lot of car people don't get that and just borrow engine oil ideology for their ATF. works fine, but it's overkill and not the same.
Edited by grossgary, 26 August 2016 - 08:13 AM.
Posted 26 August 2016 - 10:29 AM
Thanks for new info. NOW, the trans shop says they do not recommend changing the ATF since it's already dark color and trans is alreadyslipping; that changing fluid would do only make things worse! This is contrary to everything I've learned in this forum and elsewhere. Is there a risk in changing the fluid (15 yrs old with 51,000 miles)? What is it? I'm confused.
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