bgambino Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) Hey guys This is the first post on the older generation side of USMB Have not had a GL Loyale in quite a few year I purchsed a 4 dr loyale 2WD this week with 40K on it This baby is clean...I'll post a pic when I can Here's the issue...no spark I have not had time to mess with it yet but would like to hear some direction to go in This was owned by a kid at a Nissan dealer--works at the parts counter...he bought it from his boss (was bosses sisters car)....the kid bought it with the "no spark" problem He threw a new ECM. distributor and ignition coil (all used) at it and still nothing When I looked at it, I popped the disty cap in hopes it was the timing belt (hoping for no rotation)...was not that Maybe it is as simple as the high tension wire in center of distributor (now wouldn't that be fantastic????) So...tell me where you guys think I should look thanks Edited October 24, 2009 by bgambino spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) one of the timing belts is probably broke.. crank it over and see if the ditsy is spinning..thats usually the one that goes.. if not..thats your problem.. its one of the most common problems with the EA82 that people dont think to look at. Oh doh ..should have read the whole thing still make sure timing hasnt jumped or that the new ditsy was put in right...otherwise..I would just look for a broken wire.. those motors are usually something stupid that causes no spark. And congrats.. I want to trade my 95 Legacy for an 88-89 GL wagon.. I miss having an EA82 bodystyle car around. Edited October 24, 2009 by Bucky92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Ever check the IGN fuse? Check to see if voltage is flowing across the fuse. No voltage then suspect IGN switch. Also the coil bracket has to be well grounded. Could also check for voltage at the coil. Slim chance the coil wires got crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthrogrian19 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Congrats on the new car! I just picked up '91 EA82 that's in great condition, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Ever check the IGN fuse? Check to see if voltage is flowing across the fuse. No voltage then suspect IGN switch. Also the coil bracket has to be well grounded. Could also check for voltage at the coil. Slim chance the coil wires got crossed. John I think all the fuses are under the dash on this vintage suby right? When checking for voltage at this fuse, would I do it with key off? key on? or while starting ?(electrical is not my forte) Coil grounding ...are you saying the outside surface of the coil has to be grounded? It just seems odd as these are usually painted so I wonder how can it really be grounded (I thought bare metal would be required --maybe a dumb question) How do you check the voltage at the coil? Test which leads? with key on or off? or while tring to start? what readings would be normal? thanks...maybe I can look at it tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyman03 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) JohnI think all the fuses are under the dash on this vintage suby right? there are still fuse able links under the hood, but yea the fuses are under the driver dash, under the nifty cubby. Coil grounding ...are you saying the outside surface of the coil has to be grounded? It just seems odd as these are usually painted so I wonder how can it really be grounded (I thought bare metal would be required --maybe a dumb question) that is interesting too, i thought they had a little plastic cover that the bracket clamps onto.. maybe I'm wrong. I would check the timing as well, i had a similar issue to my '90 loyale, the driver side belt had a few teeth come broken, and it wasn't spinning. Maybe pop the cover off and have a look? Edited October 24, 2009 by crazyman03 forgot [/quotes] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Not the coil but the coil bracket. Attached to the bracket is a power amplifier or something like it. It is riveted to the coil bracket and uses the bracket for a ground. Turn the key to start and there should be 12 volts on the positive side of the coil. IGN fuse should have 12 volts across it with the key on. A simple test light works for both tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) ok...I spent some time looking at it I think this problem may be quite a challenge even for this board The coil bracket does have this little resister thing attached to it I took the coil and bracket out of the car and attached it to my other suby (a 92)...for kicks I did NOT mount it (grounding) It would NOT produce a spark I grounded it with a wire from the coil bracket to a screw and cranked the engine...got a good spark...SO THE COIL IS GOOD Put it back in the problem car and grounded it with a wire to the negative terminal...cranked and no spark The fuseable links all seem good I think the guy had a mechanic look at it while it was parked at the dealership (nissan)....the cover under the steering column is off exposing the ignition switch contacts so I suspect they checked here already What is this thing in the attached pic? I never saw one b4...it was on the floor of the drivers seat. Looks like something to stick in place of a fuse and check voltage...? Where do I go from here? could some ground have gone bad? where? I'm thinking I may not be able to solve this one...damn Edited October 24, 2009 by bgambino spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 (edited) Check for current flow across the IGN fuse. Unplug the IGN switch and start jumping terminals in the plug and see what happens. Would really help if you had a diagram for the ignition circuits. Probably won't do any good to check for voltage at the coil because I doubt if you have any there. Does the fuel pump kick in for a few seconds when the key is first turned? Wonder what would happen if you ran a wire from the battery directly to the positive side of the coil? Don't know if the GL has this feature but the XT and XT6s have something screwed to the back of the ignition switch. Screw loosens and that causes a starting problem. Worth checking. Edited October 25, 2009 by john in KY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukiru Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Check for current flow across the IGN fuse. Unplug the IGN switch and start jumping terminals in the plug and see what happens. Would really help if you had a diagram for the ignition circuits. Probably won't do any good to check for voltage at the coil because I doubt if you have any there. Does the fuel pump kick in for a few seconds when the key is first turned? Wonder what would happen if you ran a wire from the battery directly to the positive side of the coil? Don't know if the GL has this feature but the XT and XT6s have something screwed to the back of the ignition switch. Screw loosens and that causes a starting problem. Worth checking. do the thing in red!!! that's how my first Xt was rigged up... drove it 1800 miles home that way, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Link to Service Manuals, http://www.box.net/shared/4fmearkah4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 Check for current flow across the IGN fuse. Unplug the IGN switch and start jumping terminals in the plug and see what happens. Would really help if you had a diagram for the ignition circuits. Probably won't do any good to check for voltage at the coil because I doubt if you have any there. Does the fuel pump kick in for a few seconds when the key is first turned? Wonder what would happen if you ran a wire from the battery directly to the positive side of the coil? Don't know if the GL has this feature but the XT and XT6s have something screwed to the back of the ignition switch. Screw loosens and that causes a starting problem. Worth checking. ******************* Unplug the IGN switch and start jumping terminals in the plug and see what happens<---could this cause any problems?I assume you mean take a wire and just start touching terminals..?I would imagine two of the terminals would cause the starter to turn. But if the key is already doing this, whats the sense of me using a jmper wire? Fuel pump kicks in when turning key on I don't want to run a wire from the batt to the coil unless I know it is a safe thing to do Does anyone know if the ECM has to be grounded (bolted up) to function? The guy had it dangling I bolted it up and found no difference but I did not try it with the extra ECM he had bought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 Hey guys....are there ANY cam or crank sensors on this car? I used to own quite a few of these cars sarting with an '80 DL but I don't remember any If there were...that could be my problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Crank angle sensor inside the distributor but you stated that was swapped. Really need to check the coil for 12 volts on the positive side. This narrows down the possibilities. Also if you would test for 12 volts in the ignition system at the key switch when key is in the run/start position this will also help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted November 1, 2009 Author Share Posted November 1, 2009 Crank angle sensor inside the distributor but you stated that was swapped. Really need to check the coil for 12 volts on the positive side. This narrows down the possibilities. Also if you would test for 12 volts in the ignition system at the key switch when key is in the run/start position this will also help. ******* Ok...I spent some time today on this and I am running out of road here...may have to break down and spend hundreds getting this diagnosed..please noooo! The coil and hi tension wire going to distributor is fine as I swapped it into my 92 loyale and she fired right up At the suggestion of someone here, I ran a wire from the + side of battery to the + side of coil...when attached, the dash lites come on as if the key was turned....fuel pump kicks on.....so I turn the key...and still no spark. I took voltage readings of all the contacts on the ignition switch and they matched my running 92 loyale so no problem there What gives? I'm lost.... The fuse controlling the brake lites/interior dome lite is burned out and keeps burning out when a new one is installed...a short somewhere So...I wondered...could this be related to the problem? I created a short in the same circuit on my 92 loyale and it still starts and runs fine with it... this is pissing me off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) I don't know much about these but it sounds like an old simple ignition system. This "resistor/amplifier" thingy sounds like an ignition noise filter. edit: Nvm, I missed the part where you swapped the coil into your car to test operation. Make sure the coil is getting power and make sure it is grounded properly. I'm not sure what kind of guts are in the distributor on those so I can't help much further atm. Edited November 1, 2009 by Fairtax4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 With the key in the run position, I would think there should be 12 volts at the positive coil terminal. Also unplug the distributor harness and check the carside of the harness for voltage with the key in the run position. Beginning to think if both the coil and distributor are getting voltage the problem may be whatever causes the voltage to the coil to break in turn causing the coil to produce a spark has failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted November 1, 2009 Author Share Posted November 1, 2009 I don't know much about these but it sounds like an old simple ignition system. This "resistor/amplifier" thingy sounds like an ignition noise filter. edit: Nvm, I missed the part where you swapped the coil into your car to test operation. Make sure the coil is getting power and make sure it is grounded properly. I'm not sure what kind of guts are in the distributor on those so I can't help much further atm. ****************** on the coil bracket is this small resistor looking thing (I'd attach a pic but it is 5AM at the moment). It has 12v going to it from the harness plug. I don't get much reading from the coil itself. But the coil functions fine when I put it in the other vehicle. This is an interesting problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 When you tested the coil in your other car, did you just swap just the coil or did you swap the coil and the bracket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted November 1, 2009 Author Share Posted November 1, 2009 When you tested the coil in your other car, did you just swap just the coil or did you swap the coil and the bracket? **************** John...I swapped the coil complete with the bracket let me ask something I have been thinking about... The loyale has a distributor and coil.....I guess the ECM sends the pulse message each time a spark is required....so here's the thing,,,,how does the ECM know when each cylinder is in position for a spark to be delivered??? (can't be the distributor or can it?) In the new generation we have the cam and crank sensors. But I dont remember anythig like that in all of my older style sub's like this one Anyone know the answer to this? I would think this answer might point me in the right direction Is it some kind of sensor in the bottom of the distributor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) We know the coil and "power amplifier" mounted on the coil bracket is good because all of it worked in your other car. IGN switch is good becaused you tested it. Fuses/fusible links also good. 12 volts directly to the coil didn't work. The voltage to the has to be broken for the coil to generate a spark. I think this occurs on the negative side of the coil (ground side is interrupted). The distributor has a photo optic whatever internal called the CAS.. Light shines through 360 slots in a plate. Somehow the ECU uses this. That's about all I know about the distributor. I believe you mentioned you have an extra distributor. Unplug the distributor in your other car and plug in the extra. Place key in the run position and turn the distributor by hand. If the coil produces a spark you know that distributor is good. Do the same test in the car that doesn't run. If NO spark is generated there is a break somewhere in the wiring. The ECU has been swapped so it is probably good. You could always test it (the ECU on the nonrunning car)in the running car. Edited November 2, 2009 by john in KY last few sentences made no sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 We know the coil and "power amplifier" mounted on the coil bracket is good because all of it worked in your other car. IGN switch is good becaused you tested it. Fuses/fusible links also good. 12 volts directly to the coil didn't work. The voltage to the has to be broken for the coil to generate a spark. I think this occurs on the negative side of the coil (ground side is interrupted). The distributor has a photo optic whatever internal called the CAS.. Light shines through 360 slots in a plate. Somehow the ECU uses this. That's about all I know about the distributor. I believe you mentioned you have an extra distributor. Unplug the distributor in your other car and plug in the extra. Place key in the run position and turn the distributor by hand. If the coil produces a spark you know that distributor is good. Do the same test in the car that doesn't run. If a spark is generator either the distributor in the car is bad or there is a break somewhere in the wiring. The ECU has been swapped so it is probably good. You could always test it in the running car. thanks John...I'll give it a try...I was about to give up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torxxx Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 ok, I have a 93 at my shop that I fought for a while replaced a bunch of crap on it and could NEVER get spark during cranking. replaced dist, coil with bracket amplified etc. ECM, ignition switch etc. What ended up getting it to run was putting a diode inline on the ignition on wire off the ignition switch harness. I posted on here and someone suggested it so I tried it and it worked. fired right up. I hate electrical work so I didnt look into it after I got it fixed but for some reason on the loyales only this was a problem. I havent spent the time comparing the wiring diagrams of the 85-89 vs 90-94's but something is different in the ignition side of the harness. Might be worth trying. diodes are like a dollar at radio shack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR_Loyale Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 ******* Ok...I spent some time today on this and I am running out of road here...may have to break down and spend hundreds getting this diagnosed..please noooo! The coil and hi tension wire going to distributor is fine as I swapped it into my 92 loyale and she fired right up At the suggestion of someone here, I ran a wire from the + side of battery to the + side of coil...when attached, the dash lites come on as if the key was turned....fuel pump kicks on.....so I turn the key...and still no spark. I took voltage readings of all the contacts on the ignition switch and they matched my running 92 loyale so no problem there What gives? I'm lost.... The fuse controlling the brake lites/interior dome lite is burned out and keeps burning out when a new one is installed...a short somewhere So...I wondered...could this be related to the problem? I created a short in the same circuit on my 92 loyale and it still starts and runs fine with it... this is pissing me off I think that is a clue here. Instead of looking for something that is open, look for something that is grounded that shouldn't be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 ok...spent a little time on it today I went to a junker I have in the yard..87 GL Took out the disty...(left it wired up)...turned key on. When I rotate the disty sharft, I ger a sparl=k out of the coil wire (I was sending the spark to a metal object So I go to the 93 problem car and do the same with the existing disty...no spark Took another disty ...wired it in and grounded it....still no spark now what? good coil swapped ecm's why isn't there a pulse to create the spark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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