JeffStu Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 1996 Outback Wagon 2.2L 5sp, 225k miles My baby is in the shop now for a broken timing belt. I've got fingers crossed that not too much damage was done. Also, cruise control hasn't worked since I bought her a couple years ago. Goota check the brake switch and vacuum hoses. The fuel gauge is also limited in function. It runs to empty about twice as fast as it should. I have to pay attention to the trip meter. The 2 times I have run empty I was on a date. Embarrassing isn't strong enough a term. Sending unit? Fuel pump? Any input is greatly appreciated. I'm a poor college student and avid snowboarder, so I need this car running well and at minimum necessary expense. Thanks in advance, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 It's common for the fuel gauge not to work accurately. Mine usually hits E at 10 gals even though it has 5.9 gals left in the tank. Why not just keep it full? Is it really so much of an inconvenience to look at the trip meter? Timing belt breaking shouldn't have done anything, it's a non-interference motor. If they told you the valves were bent I would be extremely suspicious... The cruise not working could be the clutch switch. The clutch pedal has a spring attached to it that pulls up so that it presses a button that closes the circuit for the cruise. If that spring breaks then it will not press that button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 [...]Timing belt breaking shouldn't have done anything, it's a non-interference motor. If they told you the valves were bent I would be extremely suspicious... [...] Exactly -- '97 was the first year that the 2.2L was of interference design. However, even if you want to keep costs down, it might still make sense to replace more than the belt. The idlers, tensioner, water pump should be evaluated/considered as well. Sometimes a fuel system cleaner (Techron, for example) added to the gas will help with contacts on the level sensor(s) (AWD models have two, due to the tank design). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Ebay kits all day long - $80 for your car and you get belt and all new pulleys. If you pay for just a timing belt job you're getting a new belt and retaining 15 year old lacking in grease pulleys. that doesn't bode well for the next 60,000+ miles and 5 years. At the very least make sure your mechanic inspects all the pulleys and replaces any that are bad - they're just really expensive from subaru - like $300-$500 in parts only for all new pulleys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 Since when is running out of gas on a date a bad thing? How can you not have the trip meter hooked up? It works with the spedo, and the spedo is electronic. Also the spedo not working is probably why the cruise doesnt work. The fuel sender can be fixed by removing it and cleaning it with a hard pencil eraser. Also a tank or two of techron Gas additive will help. Subarus are notorius for innacurate gauges, but why not just fill up when you get to E. You do have a low gas light which should come on when there is about 2 gallons of gas left in the tank. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffStu Posted February 4, 2010 Author Share Posted February 4, 2010 My brother's mechanic is supposedly reliable, so I'm hoping he's thorough. I don't believe he'll rip me off or do bad work. Thanks for the info about the valves. I run techron or Lucas fuel system cleaners frequently and no changes to the gauge. It reads empty in about 200 miles, and I get 350+ on a full tank. next time I'm empty I'll try cleaning the sending unit relays. The speedo and trip meter seem to work fine. My haynes manual indicates a sending unit with the pump (passenger side access) as well as driver side access. Cleaning before attempting to replace is good advice, and frugal. So I'll check the clutch switch, brake switch, then look for dreaded vacuum leaks. Thanks for the advice, please keep it coming. Can anyone recommend a good short-throw shifter or mod? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 4, 2010 Share Posted February 4, 2010 One thing you got to say is that the senders are at least repeatable. My 97 gets 180-200 miles till E. on E it takes 10-11 gallons. BTW you have two senders, they are easy to get to. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 My haynes manual indicates a sending unit with the pump (passenger side access) as well as driver side access. Cleaning before attempting to replace is good advice, and frugal. And probably futile. From what I have read, these things start reading incorrectly within a year from being brand new. Replacement parts are expensive, and the problem is almost guaranteed to return. I go 240 - 250 miles in town before filling up, (I average 20mpg city) and even then I still have about 4 gallons left in the tank. You just get used to looking at the trip ODO after a little while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I actually got mine better after a cleaning. It originally was 100 miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffStu Posted February 5, 2010 Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 Update: New timing belt and it still won't start. Now I'm looking at a replacement motor in the $400-$700 range, and swapping in some recently purchased parts. Crap. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 They probably used the wrong timing marks. No reason a 96 2.2 shouldn't run like a top with a new belt installed unless the wrong marks were used to time the cams and crank. This is assuming they have all the sensors plugged in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 How much diagnosis was done between "Update: New timing belt and it still won't start." and "Now I'm looking at a replacement motor in the $400-$700 range[...]"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 How much diagnosis was done between "Update: New timing belt and it still won't start."and "Now I'm looking at a replacement motor in the $400-$700 range[...]"? Thats what I want to know too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Update: New timing belt and it still won't start. Now I'm looking at a replacement motor in the $400-$700 range, and swapping in some recently purchased parts. Crap. :-\ i would slow down a bit. The timing belt may be installed wrong. It's quite easy and common to use the wrong mark on the crank to install the belt. I would check there first. Or the battery is just weak from sitting? Check engine codes? Any info or diagnosis? "Car won't start - need engine" is really bizarre. You might not know or there might be mis-communication but that sounds like someone that I wouldn't trust to sharpen my pencil. A compression or leak down test (and reading the codes even before that) should be done before assuming you need a new motor, that's the definitive test in this situation. If anyone tells you "You need a motor" - you should run if you don't know or trust them, or if you do - immediately raise your eyebrows and start asking some questions. A proper response is "You have low compression in cylinder 2 which means your valves are bent, so you need a new engine or to repair this one." 1996 EJ22 is supposed to be non interference so you can not damage the engine by breaking the timing belt, it's impossible. But one possibility is that you have an odd "very-late" (if that's even possible) EJ22 that is actually an interference engine. I've never heard of that happening though. But it doesn't matter for two reasons: This would show up in a compression or leak down test, one of which should always be done by someone that knows what they're doing. And second bent valves are not hard to replace. I would repair your motor by replacing the bent valves, before doing an engine swap and installing some unknown used engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 [...] A compression or leak down test (and reading the codes even before that) should be done before assuming you need a new motor, that's the definitive test in this situation.[...] Yes, keeping in mind that if the engine is mistimed due to incorrect belt installation, the compression could obviously be low due to that alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 Yes, keeping in mind that if the engine is mistimed due to incorrect belt installation,the compression could obviously be low due to that alone. But we can see that in the numbers. We need the numbers of a PROPER compressionm test both wet and dry. A bent valve or bent valves would have a dramtically lower compression then normal, well mistimed will just be low. Also it is rare that someone gets the timing so far off that both cams are off, that would be another clue. Get a compression test. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I didn't suggest that a compression test not be done, just that the results could be misinterpreted, especially if someone is jumping to conclusions. [...] A bent valve or bent valves would have a dramtically lower compression then normal, well mistimed will just be low. Also it is rare that someone gets the timing so far off that both cams are off, that would be another clue.[...]The proper cam timing marks for belt installation and the arrows are offset from each other by 45 degrees. If the crank was positioned properly but the cams were at the arrows, that corresponds to a 90 degree error at the crank. With all due respect, if the wrong marks were used, saying the measured compression "will just be low" is understating the possibilities a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 I didn't suggest that a compression test not be done, just that the results could be misinterpreted, especially if someone is jumping to conclusions. The proper cam timing marks for belt installation and the arrows are offset from each other by 45 degrees. If the crank was positioned properly but the cams were at the arrows, that corresponds to a 90 degree error at the crank. With all due respect, if the wrong marks were used, saying the measured compression "will just be low" is understating the possibilities a bit. There is only so much detail of all the possabilites and combinations on ineptitude on the mchanics part i can go into due to my own poor typing capabilites. I also did not critisize your comment. In fact I thought I was supporting your comment. I also gave several possabilities of low compression readings. So i am not misunderstanding the possabilities a little bit. On past expierience since WE can not hear the engine crank over the internet, smell the exhaust, listen to the intake, compression numbers are allwe have left, especially when workign through a 3rd party who is relying on a shop for "expertise" and data. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 [...]I also did not critisize your comment. In fact I thought I was supporting your comment.[...] Perhaps I misinterpreted "But we can see that in the numbers." :-\ Anyway, I don't want to sidetrack this thread, so here are links to help with proper belt installation on the 2.2L: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2SingleOverWin01.pdf http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/2.2Liter.pdf http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/TBeltEWWin05.pdf Motor Magazine series; starts with 2.2, goes on to 2.5: http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/072001_08.pdf http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082001_08.pdf http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/092001_08.pdf http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/102001_08.pdf http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/112001_08.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted February 5, 2010 Share Posted February 5, 2010 i would think it is pretty hard to bend valves in a 96 2.2L engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffStu Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 Awesome feedback. Gives me much better questions to ask. Looks like the timing marks found in those pdf's are TDC. The mechanic says there is zero compression in a couple of cylinders. My brother was on the phone with him so I don't know which cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffStu Posted February 6, 2010 Author Share Posted February 6, 2010 Hypothetically, any compatibility issues using the engine out of a 1994 Legacy Sedan? It's from an AT car, which I would leave behind in favor of my current 5sp. Old computer or new? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 That one may have an EGR valve which will require swapping the intake manifold if yours does not have the EGR. That's getting a bit too far ahead though. Crank at TDC I'm not sure... I remember reading that it was 90° off but that may have been for the DOHC engines so there was no way for the cams to slip and cause the valves to hit the piston while changing the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 There's nothing wrong with your engine. Your mechanic does not know what he's doing. PERIOD. There's no reason a non-interference engine that got a fresh timing belt wouldn't start, unless the person who installed it didn't do it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted February 6, 2010 Share Posted February 6, 2010 (edited) [...] Looks like the timing marks found in those pdf's are TDC. [...] The "lines" or "notches" are what's used when replacing the timing belt, and should be straight up (12:00 position) at both the cam and crank sprockets. This is not a TDC position. Do not use the arrows for t-belt installation -- they will be at different rotational positions for the cams and crank when the correct marks are straight up. (In case anyone doesn't know, the arrows are to set rotational positions for valve clearance adjustment on engines that don't have hydraulic lash adjusters. Since, of course, the pistons don't all reach TDC simultaneously, the engine has to be turned to 4 different positions, 90 degrees apart, so that the clearance can be checked/adjusted for all the valves. The arrows are used to determine those positions, not for timing belt installation.) Enough said? Edited February 6, 2010 by OB99W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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