JGromada Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Ok this is not so good news on my wife's 98 OB wagon. (192K mi, AT) I drove it on the highway the other day. First time in a while. The temp gauge started climbing for a while but then subsided. It never got over 3/4 level. Once it cooled I checked the coolant level in the radiator and it was really really low. I had looked at the overflow once it was turned off and still hot and it was really sludgy, bubbling and almost up to the top. I topped off the coolant off and later drove home and the temp never changed. I stopped off at the mechanic first and inquired about what it would be for a head gasket. The service writer really strongly talked me out of doing this repair. He said its just not worth it. The car with 192K is worth at most $2500 , the repair would be $1500-1700. This car already had a head gasket done by them at 117K mi. He also thought with the amount of oil in the coolant could suggest a problem in the block, although that would be hard to say. Obviously a lot of repair dollars that would have been made so i appreciated his honesty with me. I am almost thinking i would maybe try to do the head gasket myself. any thoughts? Is it possible to do this without removing the engine? I am sort of resigned to getting something else for her to drive right now, but maybe keeping the Suby and trying to do this repair myself. I know its maybe $200 in parts which is no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisbad Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 yes , it is possible to do the head gaskets without removing the engine. i did it this way and didn't have too many troubles. the heads are actually pretty easy to get to once the engine is lifted up. you have to loosen the dog bone motor mount and of course remove the two motor mounts under the motor....the two on the cross member. once it's up you do have enough room to get in there and remove the bolts and ultimately the heads. of course , it's alot more work than just removing motor mounts. you'll certainly need a repair manual if you aren't a mechanic. it's certainly a lot cheaper than a shop. with the gasket kit,new head bolts etc. etc. the cost isn't that much. unfortunately i don't remember the total cost of the project when i did it. i did the heads , a new timing belt , t'stat , rad hoses. it was a fun little project. lots of info on the site to help. curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 If you're mechanically inclined, doing the head gasket yourself isn't really too hard. You sorta have to pull that engine to do the gaskets. The cams have to come off to get to the head bolts, and it's so tight in there it would be a major pain. but all in all, you'd probably spend less than $300 in parts. While you have it out though, may as well replace the timing belt and waterpump at the same time. That adds some, but it's a lot easier when the engine is on a stand. As long as the engine hasn't been majorly overheated and doesn't have any bangs or knocks, it's probably fine. Your other option is to swap an ej22 in. I don't know how attached to the 2.5 you are, but this is a pretty easy swap and the 2.2 is a very reliable motor. The best engine to look for is out of a 95 automatic. It has ERG and dual exhaust ports, a newer ej22 will work though as long as it has EGR. Just get the header with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaru360 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 It's 10'x easier to do HG's with the engine out and is easy to pull. But do the 2.2 and drive the car another 100,000 miles. It's a better choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisbad Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 If you're mechanically inclined, doing the head gasket yourself isn't really too hard. You sorta have to pull that engine to do the gaskets. The cams have to come off to get to the head bolts, and it's so tight in there it would be a major pain. but all in all, you'd probably spend less than $300 in parts. While you have it out though, may as well replace the timing belt and waterpump at the same time. That adds some, but it's a lot easier when the engine is on a stand. As long as the engine hasn't been majorly overheated and doesn't have any bangs or knocks, it's probably fine. Your other option is to swap an ej22 in. I don't know how attached to the 2.5 you are, but this is a pretty easy swap and the 2.2 is a very reliable motor. The best engine to look for is out of a 95 automatic. It has ERG and dual exhaust ports, a newer ej22 will work though as long as it has EGR. Just get the header with it. the cams come right out nice and easy without removing the engine. i mean yeah, it'd be an easier job with the motor out , but it can be done. and i agree with you about the belt and water pump. might as well do any replacements you think you made need at that point, you know. curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGromada Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 Thanks for all the great advice. Is the 2.2 a direct swap? Does anything else need to be changed? Where would you suggest looking for one? I am outside of Baltimore btw. If i decide to go the head gasket route I have some time to work this out. Its not like i have to do this over a weekend or anything. It sounds like i need the engine hoist to do either the swap or remove the engine to do the head gaskets. I guess thats the main reason i was thinking doing head gasket in car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 ask them what headgaskets they used the first time - probably aftermarkets which are known to be weak. if so, a properly installed Subaru gasket probably won't cause you harm down the road. quite a few folks on here have seen aftermarket head gaskets fail, including myself. what part of baltimore, i'm from Westminster? your name looks familiar - maybe just from the board i guess? zillions of EJ22 swap threads/information on here, yes it's plug and play if you choose the right one. ** Edit - it's really rare for these blocks to crack, i highly doubt it is. Probably aftermarket headgasket or it just wasn't installed very well the first time - torque sequence and head flatness/finish are critical and need to be perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 Thanks for all the great advice. Is the 2.2 a direct swap? Does anything else need to be changed? Where would you suggest looking for one? I am outside of Baltimore btw. If i decide to go the head gasket route I have some time to work this out. Its not like i have to do this over a weekend or anything. It sounds like i need the engine hoist to do either the swap or remove the engine to do the head gaskets. I guess thats the main reason i was thinking doing head gasket in car. It's a direct swap. No electrical needed. The only thing is, if the ej22 isn't a 95 you'll need to swap the header. Not a big deal, just something to keep in mind. I'd start by checking local forums and on here in the for sale section. I've found mine on a local forum. Engine hoist? nahhhhhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGromada Posted April 3, 2011 Author Share Posted April 3, 2011 wow i was pretty impressed with that last photo. what does that engine weigh about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 ~300ish lbs. You at least caught the trouble early before it overheated badly. Have the heads re-surfaced, and put some Subaru gaskets on it I'd say it should be good to go. Sounds to me like the replacement gaskets just didn't hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 (edited) FYI the head bolts do NOT need to be replaced. They are NOT torque to yeild bolts. Felpro just wants to sell you bolts. Subaru does not recommend bolt replacement. (You tell me how a steel bolt will stretch in aluminum treads? threads would strip out.) Use Subaru OE gaskets, reuse the bolts. You'll be fine. Also, the fact that the same shop that did the work is telling you now it's failed. How long ago? Why won't they fix it? They want to tell you it's "not worth it" because otherwise they look bad for not doing a good job the first time. Also.........it's a false equation to compare "cost of fix" vs. "worth" of vehicle" Vehichles you own to drive, NEVER make you money. They always cost something to drive, and as they get older, there value bottoms while repair costs stay about the same on a monthly/yearly basis (at least subaurs do). By that logic, if the car is only "worth" 300-500 dollars.....it wouldn't even be worth putting tires or brakes on. But if that was all it needed to drive another 6 mo. It would be cheaper to buy tires than a new car, but the tires will be more than the car is "worth" You have to compare "cost of fix" vs. "cost of replacement". And you have to consider that you're "replacement" may have unknown problems coming up. To get something with known service history will be even more. To get the same reliability, with a known history you would have with your OB, you will undoubtly have to spend 2-3x more than the $1500 that a shop would charge (high price unless they are doing T-belt and W-pump too) Edited April 3, 2011 by Gloyale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 (You tell me how a steel bolt will stretch in aluminum treads? threads would strip out.) When the bolt tension excedes the elastic limit. Not that hard to do w/cheap bolts. Amazing how far they will stretch.I have lots of examples.No stripped threads. Torque to yield bolts are designed to stretch,of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 wow i was pretty impressed with that last photo. what does that engine weigh about? Heh, thanks. When you want to get something done, you get it done. The ej22 is just over 220 or so without accessories, the ej25 is a bit more because the heavier heads. Doubt 300 though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Pin Posted April 3, 2011 Share Posted April 3, 2011 I would drop in a decent 95 2.2 and call it a day. My luck with older 2.5's has been not good when they get to be higher mileage like yours. If it ran good and it was under 165K, then I would do the HG and drop it back in. What do the rest of you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 I would drop in a decent 95 2.2 and call it a day. My luck with older 2.5's has been not good when they get to be higher mileage like yours. If it ran good and it was under 165K, then I would do the HG and drop it back in. What do the rest of you guys think? His 2.5 has nearly 200K miles on the odo. With that high millage, I would be inclined to replace with a good running lower millage 2.2 motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 The 2.5 that came with my GT had it's head gaskets done in the low hundred thousands. When I got it the engine had been overheated to the point of seizure twice, and still started up and ran!! No knocks, bangs, ticks, etc. It didn't sound bad at all, one of the better sounding ej25s I've heard. And that's at 228k miles on it. Now that I have it partly torn down, the cyl walls look good and everything. I'm not running the block now just because I fear the bearings would go soon after getting so hot. I dunno if that engine is an anomaly, but one tough little motor! The reason the gaskets failed again is because they were some aftermarket crap, they weren't MLS ones. Then one of the cars in my family is a 99 outback. I was driving it when the HG failed around 120k, it didn't even get into the hot range on the temp gauge when I caught it. That's still running wonderfully at about 170k now. So with my personal experience with the ej25, they aren't garbage by any means. And I wouldn't hesitate to run a properly rebuilt one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 The 2.5 that came with my GT had it's head gaskets done in the low hundred thousands. When I got it the engine had been overheated to the point of seizure twice, and still started up and ran!! No knocks, bangs, ticks, etc. It didn't sound bad at all, one of the better sounding ej25s I've heard. And that's at 228k miles on it. Now that I have it partly torn down, the cyl walls look good and everything. I'm not running the block now just because I fear the bearings would go soon after getting so hot. I dunno if that engine is an anomaly, but one tough little motor! The reason the gaskets failed again is because they were some aftermarket crap, they weren't MLS ones. Then one of the cars in my family is a 99 outback. I was driving it when the HG failed around 120k, it didn't even get into the hot range on the temp gauge when I caught it. That's still running wonderfully at about 170k now. So with my personal experience with the ej25, they aren't garbage by any means. And I wouldn't hesitate to run a properly rebuilt one. Good post! AS much as people here hate 2.5's there is also VERY MANY aside from this community who have simply replaced the hg's on the 2.5 PROPERLY and have been driving for many many more years after the repair successfully without having to go down to a older underpowered higher mileage 2.2. I have had my share of 2.2l's which were trouble free yes! But I have repaired my share of 2.5's and those cars are driving around happily! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 The 2.2 I swapped into the GT is JUNK. I mean, it starts right up and runs fine. But when I first put it in the thing blew a head gasket. And it burns about 2qt of oil in 2000 miles. Blows smoke, etc. Not every ej22 is a godsend to earth either.... The ej25 is getting the same hate the ea82 gets... If it's taken care of properly, it's not a bad engine. Anyway, sorry to sidetrack this thread. I'm just sick of the ej25 hate lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Pin Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the 2.5's, but if the motor is higher in miles 2.2 or 2.5, why not replace it with a lower mile engine. The 2.5's of that era are kind of hard to find due to either poor maitenance or the HG issue that hasn't been dealt with properly. So a 2.2 with lower miles is a decent alternative. If the 2.5 is running great and he has the time and wants to put her back in great! Best of luck whichever direction you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I wasn't saying don't do a 2.2 swap. I was just stating that the 2.5 isn't garbage. I'm tired of the 2.5 hate on here. that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3Pin Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I get it. I like the power of the 2.5 over the 2.2. I did HG jobs on two 2.5's and ran them for another 30K after that. Both ran well when I sold them. One liked to burn a little oil and the guy that bought it from me didn't check it and blew it up in under a month. Made me mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I get it. I like the power of the 2.5 over the 2.2. I did HG jobs on two 2.5's and ran them for another 30K after that. Both ran well when I sold them. One liked to burn a little oil and the guy that bought it from me didn't check it and blew it up in under a month. Made me mad. If you can do the work, and the engine is good. Fixing the 2.5 will be cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ionlyhave3suubs Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 If you have some mechanical skills and can follow directions, you can do this! I'm sure you have heard the sermons on using oem only headgaskets. Believe them. My first 2.5 HG job on a 96 LSi turned out ok with aftermarket gaskets, but my later job on my 97 outback ended up with an external coolant leak. Also make sure you get the heads checked professionally for proper surface flatness. If you are not familiar with the process, money well spent. Yes you can do the job with the engine still in the car, but if it is your first time, I recommend pulling the engine out. While you have it out, along with timing belt and associated parts, its a good time to seal up any oil leaks. One I missed on my first one, was the "oil separator plate" on the transmission side of the engine. there is a oem replacement metal part that replaces the leaky plastic one. If you have the engine out, definitely spend a few bucks there so you don't have to pull it again for that. (On my to do list for mine, I didn't know about it when I had mine out) I frequently have people chase after me to tell me my car is on fire after I park it. I casually tell them, "it does that all the time.":cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGromada Posted September 23, 2011 Author Share Posted September 23, 2011 just getting back to this project. Just finished up rebuilding the front end on my old BMW. Looks like i can get an engine hoist ( i have no garage) for about $160 from Harbor Freight. I do have a space i can move the engine to ( i have a stand for the engine now) and work on it over the winter. I appreciate everyone's comments and encouragement. This board is great! and very helpful. (the people on the BMW board are a**holes for the most part, sad to admit that) Don't have a good source for a 2.2 around here so I am planning on rebuilding the 2.5. maybe when i start digging into it i will have more questions. Tips for separating AT from engine? i heard of the 4 bolts 2 were a real bear. Also i suppose i need to support AT from above once separated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubaruJawn Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 the last time i did head gaskets was on my EJ22 in the old gray legacy. i didn't remove the engine to change the gaskets, i simply unbolted and removed the heads, the only challenge was cleaning up the old gasket with out fowling up the head from scrapping the old gasket off. i however found it a waste because it still overheated with new gaskets. i wouldn't attempt it unless i was for sure the temp never reached Red all its life. you said it reached 3/4 thats good as long it wasn't ran to long. in your situation I'd redo the gaskets and get the ML Gaskets from subaru. Good Luck -Jawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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