Whitedog Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) Hello all, I guess I can start this discussion on the engine that I get to work on, but first a bit about me. I am a mechanic, but all this spark stuff is out of my comfort zone since I am a diesel head. I spent 15 years as a John Deere construction mechanic and I have the painful pleasure of owning and working on my two VW TDIs. So what am I doing with a Subaru? I am now working for a company that has a custom engine in a Subaru. It is a 2.5, 2.5 litre 2003 Legacy. It's a 2.5, 2.5L because it has one dead hole and low compression on another hole, therefore it's only 2.5 cylinders... <crickets> So I have been doing a bit of studying and thanks to the locals I am pretty sure that after 245,000 miles of no valve adjustment (My guess) the #4 exhaust valve is burnt. I have learned that I will want to pull the engine for the repair, mounted on a stand. I have learned that this engine is a 2.5L Phase II, SOHC that could have the possible potential of maybe leaking coolant externally. I have learned that I will want to send the head to a compatent head shop, I'm not sure if they put them under grow lights, or what, so I'll find a good, local machine shop instead. I have learned that I will want to replace the timing belt SYSTEM. This will include the belt, water pump, seals, tensioner roller, other rollers (But I'm not sure which ones) and check the tensioner. I have learned about the timing marks and which ones to pay attention to and which to ignore. I have learned that there are some other things on the engine that I will want to pay attention to while it is out such as the oil pump cover bolts and a plastic piece under the flexplate as well as a couple other things I have in a PM from JohnCEgg. I have learned that if I can get to Portlandia, I should stop in and see Rick and give him some love for all the help he has provided. I have learned why there was oil around the spark plugs when I pulled them. I have learned that there are parts to get aftermarket and parts to get genuine Subaru though I don't know about the timing belt stuff and I need to start a list of that kind of stuff. I have learned that there isn't much information on how to with this engine. I have learned that this site ROCKS! I think that is the important stuff for now. R&R doesn't look difficult, but do I pull the intake system before pulling the engine? I'm unsure of how exactly to lift and pull; does it need to be tilted, or just jack up the trans and the motor mounts come out? yeah, i'm hazy on that part since I haven't looked too closely. Where to hook my hoist? I think I saw a loop on the back and maybe a braket near the alternator? Four bolts on the flex plate accessed from the top... Pull the radiator... Unbolt the AC compressor and set it aside... Protect the AC Condensor... Unfortunately since the boss also owns a 6.0 Ford Powersrtoke, I spend a lot of resources working on that so this probably won't happen until December. Plenty of time to line up my GO DUCKS! before then so hopefully I can use this thread to be sure I have it all together. Thanks for all the info and I'll check in here with the information I have so I can have it all here and people can check and correct what I find. Edited October 30, 2011 by Whitedog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 nice research! you don't have to pull the engine for head work, but it seems to be preferred by many. sounds like you have it down for pulling it. the trans is not held in place by anything up front except the pitching stopper which you'll remove. after that it's only held in place by the engine. which means: 1. yes - just jack it up for the motor mounts to clear the cross member. 2. when reinstalling you'll need to lift the transmission up with a jack or something to help line it up with the engine, otherwise the engine mounts won't clear the crossmember to get low enough to meet the trans which now sits on the cross member with the engine out. you certainly know this by now but given the propensity for HG issues, using the Subaru gaskets is preferred by most in recent years though aftermarkets are starting to come up to speed in some ways, but i haven't seen any added value yet so no need to deviate from Subaru for me. i like the 610 gaskets, that's the last 3 digits of the part number. they have a another thinner gasket that they'll probably give you for that engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 So I have been doing a bit of studying and thanks to the locals I am pretty sure that after 245,000 miles of no valve adjustment (My guess) the #4 exhaust valve is burnt. Very likely. That's the most common one to get a burned valve on. I've seen it twice before. Always due to lack of valve adjustment. I have learned that this engine is a 2.5L Phase II, SOHC that could have the possible potential of maybe leaking coolant externally. Specifically it's known as the EJ251. Yes - use only Subaru OEM head gaskets. The first couple generations of the gasket had some issues with the sealant washing away. Though the coolant leaks can be fixed with a bottle or two of the Subaru Coolant "conditionter" (stop leak) - they can also leak oil. The leaks are always always worst on the driver's side. I have learned that I will want to send the head to a compatent head shop, I'm not sure if they put them under grow lights, or what, so I'll find a good, local machine shop instead. Yeah - most machine shops are fine. I use one that does a lot of Subaru's. I have learned that I will want to replace the timing belt SYSTEM. This will include the belt, water pump, seals, tensioner roller, other rollers (But I'm not sure which ones) and check the tensioner. At that kind of mileage you will want to replace the tensioner. Most kits for that engine on ebay, etc will come with the tensioner - they have a higher failure rate than the old piston style units from pre-97 models. I have learned that there are some other things on the engine that I will want to pay attention to while it is out such as the oil pump cover bolts and a plastic piece under the flexplate as well as a couple other things I have in a PM from JohnCEgg. '03 will not have the plastic seperator. Those went away after '99. It should not need to be touched. The oil pump back plate bolts similarly were a problem of the mid to late 90's engines. Though you will want to replace the o-ring behind the pump anyway so check them out. I have learned that if I can get to Portlandia, I should stop in and see Rick and give him some love for all the help he has provided. Definitely! Stop in anytime. I did a fair amount of diesel work in the Army. As a generator mechanic by MOS and a truck mechanic most of the time I saw a fair number of brands - John Deer even has an engine or two in the newer generators. I have learned that there are parts to get aftermarket and parts to get genuine Subaru though I don't know about the timing belt stuff and I need to start a list of that kind of stuff. Get your timing belt kit from "theimportexperts" on ebay. R&R doesn't look difficult, but do I pull the intake system before pulling the engine? I'm unsure of how exactly to lift and pull; does it need to be tilted, or just jack up the trans and the motor mounts come out? yeah, i'm hazy on that part since I haven't looked too closely. Where to hook my hoist? I think I saw a loop on the back and maybe a braket near the alternator? Yes - pull the intake first. Then pull the PS and flop that away - then the AC compressor and flop that to the side. Rear hooked bracket near the main wireing harness connections, and the front AC bracket has a loop in it. Put a jack under the tranny and jack up the engine off the cross-member. Then hook it up to your picker, take the weight off the engine, and out it comes. Four bolts on the flex plate accessed from the top... Pull the radiator... Unbolt the AC compressor and set it aside... Protect the AC Condensor... Yep. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) you have learned much , grasshopper. but if you have one dead cylinder and one low cylinder the chances are pretty good, depenfding which 2 cylinders, chances are pretty good it is just off time. the belt jumped, the driver side cam is off. 2 and 4 are on the driver side, you said 4 was dead, is 2 the ''low'' cylinder? [ 3 ]---[ 4 ] [ 1 ]---[ 2 ] front of car anyway, jumped time may be bent valves, but it may not. buy the timing kit and hang a new belt or hang the old one. you can leave the timing cover and the accessory belts off of this test. if it runs better, do a compression test. you will need to keep track of the timing through out this test. if it jumped once it could jump again during the test, especially if the tensioner is weak. as long as you are sure the engine will be repaired, buying the timing kit is not a waste of money. as far as pulling the engine, leave the intake in place. i use an old seat belt as a lifting strap under the intake. careful to grab only the intake, not wire or tubes. (driver front passenger rear.) most folks use the rear ''hook'' passenger side and the front AC bracket. i like the strap. yes , jack up the trans , careful not to dent the trans oil pan, and then separate the engine. the lower trans to engine bolts are actually long studs mounted in the engine. you will have to move the engine ~3 inches to clear the studs. you will probably have to adjust the engine angle as you lift and pull. remove the ''dog bone'' on top of the trans (to firewall) so you can jack it up. i think the last time i did this i lifted the engine and trans as a unit and placed a jack stand under the trans. i then set the trans down on the jack. then loosened and pulled the engine. i don't know if this is a bad idea or not. oh yeah, search for ''torqueconverter'' and read some of the older threads(all the newer threads are instructions to search) for a how to re-seat the TC. failure to do so, if it slides out more than ~1/2 inch, will kill the trans. re-seating is not hard to do as long as you know it is needed. but if it is not seated correctly, it will kill the trans oil pump. Edited October 12, 2011 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Thank you masters, Doggie is learning new tricks, contrary to the old saying. #1 is 150 PSi and #3 is 180 so that is the one I know is low. I don't know why I didn't check #2, so get the rolled up newspaper for me. So knowiung that, I am guessing that almost rules out the timing issue? Ugh... If I don't know the compression on #2 I don't know anything... OK, complete compression test to come. Since the engine needs to be tilted and since I don't have a fancy tilter, I use a 1/4 ton come-along on one hook and tilt that way. Works great for setting engines in the back of Jettas. (I should have had air springs in the back since I was flashed more than a supermodel at a rainjacket convention.) (OK, that was horrible. I should stop.) John, my thinking is that if the timing is off, I gotta pull the heads anyway and have them rebuilt, so why not just pull it, then check timing while it's easy? If it jumped, isn't it a sure thing that valves met pistons and liked being close so they kissed and got all bent out of shape over it. Since it's been to the moon, I can certainly justify the tensioner to the boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) i can't find the compression numbers for the '03 , but i do know the ratio is 10:1. but the compression numbers on the 99 DOHC 2.5L engine with 9.5:1 ratio is 176, with 136 considered the minimum. so 150 is not in itself deadly. but having all 4 numbers will give you a better picture. yes, jumped time is likely bent valves very likely, but not 100%. but if it jumped enough to be 0 psi on #4, yeah probably bent, if not a burned valve. you probably didn't check #2 since #4 was 0. Edited October 12, 2011 by johnceggleston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 you probably didn't check #2 since #4 was 0. But I was RIGHT there! Why did I fail again??? I just can't imagine a good reason why. I mean afterall, I started at #4! LOL! The next logical move is to #2. Sheesh, get out the flog and ashes for me while I beat myself up for it! Anyway, thanks for trying to keep my self esteem out of the gutter... I love you, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 So, back on track here... (I really need to stop hijacking my threads on car forums) Since there seems to be a lack of easily found, consolidated information on this I am hoping to get things together to help others if they find themselves in this situation. I'll start looking for pricing information and sources to get it all laid out. At least that's my goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 get out the flog and ashes for me while I beat myself up for it! sit, stay, in the dog house for 10 minutes. what kind of white dog do you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 sit, stay, in the dog house for 10 minutes. what kind of white dog do you have? She was a Jack Russel. I miss her dearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 oh yeah, search for ''torqueconverter'' and read some of the older threads(all the newer threads are instructions to search) for a how to re-seat the TC. failure to do so, if it slides out more than ~1/2 inch, will kill the trans. re-seating is not hard to do as long as you know it is needed. but if it is not seated correctly, it will kill the trans oil pump. Is it stator, driveshaft, pump going in? I used to have troubles with TCs because I was afarid of them. Then I just did it and made sure the end result was right and got better. Sometimes you have to just look it in the eye and do it. It will be good to know that it's all the way in before stuffing the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I have learned that I will want to send the head to a compatent head shop, I'm not sure if they put them under grow lights, or what, so I'll find a good, local machine shop instead. LMAO! Torque converter is easy. After you remove the bolts, pry it away from the flexplate with a screwdriver. Once the engine and trans are separated, bolt a box end wrench to the bellhousing to hold the TC securely in place while you move the engine/transmission around. This isn't entirely necessary when just removing the engine, but it makes it mucho easiero to deal with when removing the transmission. Also I've found when lifting the engine, if you don't have a load leveler, bolting the chain to the block with the large bolt that holds the lower AC compressor bracket on will help balance the engine just a little better, and helps tilt the back of the block down just a hair which makes it easier to line up with the trans when re-installing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 LMAO! Torque converter is easy. After you remove the bolts, pry it away from the flexplate with a screwdriver. Once the engine and trans are separated, bolt a box end wrench to the bellhousing to hold the TC securely in place while you move the engine/transmission around. This isn't entirely necessary when just removing the engine, but it makes it mucho easiero to deal with when removing the transmission. Also I've found when lifting the engine, if you don't have a load leveler, bolting the chain to the block with the large bolt that holds the lower AC compressor bracket on will help balance the engine just a little better, and helps tilt the back of the block down just a hair which makes it easier to line up with the trans when re-installing. I imagined some kind of way to hold it in the Bell housing since we will need to roll the car outside so we can get other stuff in the shop. At least I'm hoping we can roll it. Are there any guesses on how much head work would cost? Also, are there any Torque To Yield bolts I will need to worry about? VWs are full of TTY bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yeah you can roll it just fine. Don't even need to hold up the trans. Just drop it on the subframe and shove off! No TTY bolts that I know of. Head bolts are 110% re-usable. Chase the threads in the block so the bolts don't bind during the torque sequence. Coat head bolts in fresh motor oil when installing. My machine shop charged $35 per head to resurface. There's a place about 45 minutes from here that does Subaru heads for only about $30 per head but it's not really worth the drive. Especially since the local guy machined them while I watched/waited. For the valve work I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) I imagined some kind of way to hold it in the Bell housing since we will need to roll the car outside so we can get other stuff in the shop. At least I'm hoping we can roll it. Are there any guesses on how much head work would cost? I pay about $80 per head for a full resurface, and valve grind. Each valve and seat that needs replacing due to being burnt is about an extra $25. It's typically about $185 to do a set of burnt-valve heads since it's usually only a single valve. Also, are there any Torque To Yield bolts I will need to worry about? VWs are full of TTY bolts. Silly Germans.... Subaru does not use a single TTY fastener - not even on the 2012's. Head bolts are NEVER replaced unless damaged. I will say it now - after you have worked on this Subaru and a few others and have a good feel for them - you won't want anything to do with German cars or equipment. I've worked on my share of VW's, Audi's, BMW's, Mercedes, and others - as well as Busch vacuum pumps (Factory trained service tech) and other odd-ball stuff from Deutschland..... to HELL with that crap. Their engineers need to be drug out in the street and shot. GD Edited October 13, 2011 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 I pay about $80 per head for a full resurface, and valve grind. Each valve and seat that needs replacing due to being burnt is about an extra $25. It's typically about $185 to do a set of burnt-valve heads since it's usually only a single valve. Silly Germans.... Subaru does not use a single TTY fastener - not even on the 2012's. Head bolts are NEVER replaced unless damaged. I will say it now - after you have worked on this Subaru and a few others and have a good feel for them - you won't want anything to do with German cars or equipment. I've worked on my share of VW's, Audi's, BMW's, Mercedes, and others - as well as Busch vacuum pumps (Factory trained service tech) and other odd-ball stuff from Deutschland..... to HELL with that crap. Their engineers need to be drug out in the street and shot. GD Great, no TTY to worry about. So far I'm at about $1500 with my labor. Hopefully less if I can knock it out with no wasted time. And I am tempted to quote that last paragraph on the TDIClub. Some of those guys are rabid about their cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Another question: I would like to (maybe) make a set of guide studs for the heads. How long and what thread would I need? Since they aren't TTY there aren't bunches of used ones floating around, so finding them would be a bit tougher than some bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 guide studs? is this to help you locate the head on the block? the block has 2 ferrules / guide tubes ( i don't know what flows thru them?) mounted on it. this will guide you the last 1/2 inch. will that do what you need? when i did mine, i had the engine on an engine stand with the block rotated 90* so i was able to set the head straight down on the block. it was easy. of course if you don't have an engine stand........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 guide studs? is this to help you locate the head on the block? the block has 2 ferrules / guide tubes ( i don't know what flows thru them?) mounted on it. this will guide you the last 1/2 inch. will that do what you need? when i did mine, i had the engine on an engine stand with the block rotated 90* so i was able to set the head straight down on the block. it was easy. of course if you don't have an engine stand........ LOL! I am thinking of big, heavy, cast iron heads. I would bet a fully dressed SOHC head is maybe 20 Lbs? Yeah, that half inch guide tube and the engine rotated 90 Degrees will do fine. We have an engine stand NIB that still smells like Harbor Freight. Thanks for the reminder. Hi ho, hi ho... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Yeah a fully assembled SOHC head, w/ rocker cover and cam sprocket installed, you can hold in one hand. I say with rocker cover, because even the FSM says that there is no need to remove the rocker covers in order to remove the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 Is it worth it to pull the starter solenoid apart and check the contacts, replacing them if needed? It looks pretty easy and since the car will start and stop quite often during the day, it got me thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 YI say with rocker cover, because even the FSM says that there is no need to remove the rocker covers in order to remove the head. true for the ej22 90 - 98, not the ej25 00 - 04. the head bolts are inside the cover. but on the 00 - 04 you don't have to remove the rockers to pull the head. but i here on the ej25d dohc you have to remove the rockers to get to the head bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 but i here on the ej25d dohc you have to remove the rockers to get to the head bolts. You have to remove thet cams - on the 25D there are no rockers. Same goes for any of the USDM DOHC engines. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitedog Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 Timing belt is intact and both cams are in the same position so I am very sure the timing isn't the problem. I didn't check compression because I didn't feel like it today. I did pull the dipstick... put it in, pulled it... hmm... add half a quart... AH! There it is, at least it on the dipstick now... (Please note that I haven't been working on this car in the past.) While I was adding oil, "smoke" was coming out the dipstick hole. HRM... When it's running, there is what I can only describe as a "chuffing" sound when I remove the oil fill cap or the dipstick. Do you think that is a symptom of a burnt valve? I also found a torn right, inner CV boot. What is the best course of action there? Boot, one end or whole axle? Hopefully I'll find some info on How To here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 "While I was adding oil, "smoke" was coming out the dipstick hole. HRM... When it's running, there is what I can only describe as a "chuffing" sound when I remove the oil fill cap or the dipstick. Do you think that is a symptom of a burnt valve?" That sounds and looks like blowby on the rings. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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