DC493 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I was in process of pulling my engine out to do a big amount of work to the car and before I could even pull it out I realized that the cover (more or less on the driver side) Is melted I couldn't get a good snap shot cause of the sun I will post one later... Does anyone know why or how this happened?? Its a 5spd 2wd. TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The car may have been overheated at one point, and subsequently had a HG repair. The covers are junk and you can ditch them if you like. There is no harm to having bad/broken/missing covers. some consider it a bonus, an excuse to ditch them, as having them gone makes routine inspection and maintenance that much easier. For what reason are you doing all this work and pulling the engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC493 Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thats what I have herd what if im doing a lot of mudding and driving in the snow will that affect the belts in any way?? What other 'precautions' should I take while having them off? Firstly I was going to take out my engine and tranny to inspect some issues it had before it got parked such as, No R gear, and puttering while trying to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Take the opportunity to replace the cam seals, the crank and oil pump seals. leave the rear seal alone if it is not cracked or leaking. It would not a a bad idea to take off the cam towers and replace the o-ring in the oil passage, as when this fails, you get obnoxios ticking noises that are impossible to cure without replacing this o-ring. Take off the cam pulleys to do the seals, and ditch the inner covers while in there. Otherwise, just break them off and remove the bolts you can reach. I myself have never had a problem with open belts. Mosn never have. There may be a stray report of debris or failure. But the only failure that i know of is from a loose shop rag under the hood getting wrapped up in the belt. either way, if you do lose a belt, you can replace it in 10 minutes off the side of the road, with no belt covers, as you will not have to remove the crank or the ac bracket to get to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Timing belt covers are not junk. They serve a purpose. They protect the belts from snow, ice, stones, road debree etc. A badly over heated engine will not melt the covers. I dont know what would but I know what wouldnt. Maybe at some time something rubbed againts them or was stuck in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 a small exhaust gasket leak at the bottom of the head to header, can shoot hot enough heat to the bottom of the cover to melt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) A badly over heated engine will not melt the covers. I dont know what would but I know what wouldnt. I'm going to have to veto that statement. I have seen MANY melted timing covers - both on EA82's and EJ's. It's actually stupidly common and it IS a result of overheating. I have seen engines overheated so badly that the rear covers melt, and so will the plastic off the knock sensor. It can be an ugly sight. Usually it's a bad sign. You have to get them aweful hot for that to happen. Usually hot enough that they will not even drive the car due to the detonation or hot enough that they actually stall out. Rod bearings are usually gone, sometimes they seize. It definitely happens. Sometimes they live again. Sometimes not. I also run the EA82's coverless. It's the difference between 3 hours to replace the belts and 15 minutes. I would rather have a broken belt and lose 15 minutes than 3 hours and a tow truck ride. But it's up to your abilities and if that's acceptable to you. They sell new covers at the dealer - I sugest you use zip-ties (quality one's) instead of the bolts that hold them together. GD Edited November 2, 2011 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Timing belt covers are not junk. They serve a purpose. They protect the belts from snow, ice, stones, road debree etc. A badly over heated engine will not melt the covers. I dont know what would but I know what wouldnt. Maybe at some time something rubbed againts them or was stuck in there. they are junk when melted, brittle, cracked, brass thread inserts loose, zip ties, etc. Or they are junk when they break, crack, strip out during routine service. of course their DESIGN serves a purbose, but people trade in their new cars for new cars, and nobody who designed this car would have thought that someone would be messing with timing belts 25 years later. melted timing belts are a result of overheats. i have seen them on both ea82t and xt6 er27, both with melted tbelt cpvers, both with bad HG's it's one's opinion whether or not the belt covers are useful or reassuring, makes you feel better or whatnot, but the fact is, they are not worth replacing or fixing when they ultimately become junk. the argument can be made for DOHC subarus differently, but those are not old and brittle. ea82 timing belts break, no harm, replace them. ej22 timing belts break when the water pump or idler pulley fails. i have seen an ej22 with melted covers, seized water pump, failed bearing on the idler. The idler eroded through the front cover. the belt was partly melted and frayed, but not broken. I had a legacy with open belts, running at idle, with e pebble rolling around in the belt. the pebble jumped out when i revved it. my xt6 was parked alongside my garage, running, with a stick between the block and the belt, and the stick was vibrating against the notches on the belt. no harm, just drove away like that. my point is, the covers themselves are as likely if not more likely to fail than the belt. open belts are easier to inspect and service, period. a 2.5 hour timing belt job on an ea82 is 2 hours of covers and 30 minutes of belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 part of the purpose of the covers, is to prevent fingers, hands, sleeves, long hair from getting pulled into a running engine. Same purpose as fan shrouds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 part of the purpose of the covers, is to prevent fingers, hands, sleeves, long hair from getting pulled into a running engine. Same purpose as fan shrouds... Because it is something being sold to a consumer market, but isn't really part of the overall engineering, other than such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 stray cats like to take shelter on a cold winter day up in the nice warm engine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 So why aren't the accesory drive belts fully shrouded to protect said cats? Belt covers are a choice. Nothing more. No one is stopping you from running them if you like. They don't work for me, they don't work for Fox, and they don't work for a lot of other board members. We have stated our reasons. Some people insist on running them - mostly due to fear. Fear that they will break - fear that they will get a cat hung up in them.... etc. When I had EA82's and drove them - I kept an extra set of belts and a 12mm deep socket/ratchet in the car. Drove 10's of thousands of miles between all the cars I had with that engine and I never used my spare set. Not once. I did replace the belts on occasion as well as some water pumps, oil pumps, and head gaskets, cam/crank seals, etc. Each time I was super happy about not dealing with those F'n covers. I don't run front/rear outer covers on my EJ22's either. I do run the center cover on them. YMMV. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I might go for giving a try without them next time in i am in there. On a related note, when i went to look at a local 96 SVX advertised a few years ago, i notice the belt covers were missing bolts on the bottom. Also, there was no splash shield underneath, and the sidemarker light socket connector was unplugged, connector was right behind the headlamp socket, just beggin to be plugged in. I took this as a sign of being poorly maintained, serviced by a non expert. I would rather have seen no covers, than ones not even installed properly; not that i havent hacked a few cars myself.:-p I am not a fan of cats so that may be reason to remove my covers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC493 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 I am not a fan of cats so that may be reason to remove my covers.... I can agree I think I'm going to try running without them see where that goes, I might install a skid plate to cover the belts to the oil pan but im not sure where I can connect it all. Today im gonna check all the seals and hopefully get the engine out... I do remember at one point traveling to Durango the car did over heat and stall, perhaps that was the event that melted the covers but with this does that mean that a lot of harm was done to the engine. Obviously overheating til it stall s no good but after that it ran perfect, with the right amount of fluids.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 +6 to no covers. I know of 5 Loyales (and 1 GL) that have all been coverless for well over a year now without any issue...and I drive over anything that I pretty much can... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmill189 Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I don't use the covers as well. Most of the bolts had seized and at one point in the cars life, one of the outer covers came off and the belt had chewed through most of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 I don't have covers on my EA82 either. when we rebuilt, we threw them away. after running without them, I see no reason to have them, and if I ever end up with another EA82, I'll chuck those covers as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC493 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 Just a thought.. Running with no covers wouldn't my bearings,cam.. ext be a high risk even in snowy/ muddy conditions or does that not matter?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubies Subie Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Just a thought.. Running with no covers wouldn't my bearings,cam.. ext be a high risk even in snowy/ muddy conditions or does that not matter?? Bearings are behind the seals, and the seals would be no more at risk then the seals on an engine with an internal timing chain. the Chevy small block V8 has a seal on the crank behind the harmonic balancer that's pretty much exposed to everything, the seals keep the oil in and the dirt out. an outboard boat motor has lower unit seals that do the same thing, and they run submerged in river and lake water all day long. a seal is a seal, and if they will keep the oil in and the water out on an outboard boat motor, then it sure isn't gonna hurt anything to have them exposed on an EA82 without the timing belt covers. another example would be axle seals on a trailer, they keep the grease in and the grit out. and those are running inches from the road surface, not up under a hood on the EA82 protected from the elements (for the most part) Edited November 2, 2011 by Stubies Subie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Think about what the wheel bearing seals have to go through:brow: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC493 Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 Very true.... Wouldn't they wear out fast though or can the seals last A WHILE with some four wheeling abuse living in the mountains?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 they would outlast their recommended service interval anyway. Usually an ea82 will go a good 135-145,000 miles on its original belts before they break, many that i have seen that have never been serviced before and sat around a lot in between. You would have the chance to notice anything wearing out with no covers, versus something wearing out, and then having to remove the covers to see what broke. Ditch them now, and you will thank yourself later if you decide to replace the warter pump, oil pump seals, or cam seals. Thank yourself for never having to remove the crank pulley, as sometimes it is difficult to install the bolt and torque properly and it falls off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 The kit with the belts and tensioners is $65 off ebay and the belts typically want replaced about every 60k. Often they break before that in fact. If you replace all the components when you do the belts (why not for the price) then you will have no troubles at all with bearing failures. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l75eya Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 take off the cam towers and replace the o-ring in the oil passage Miles, you have any AOSM videos that detail that job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC493 Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 Got my engine in the air today and took off my covers (did not get it all the way out unfortunately AC is a lot harder to take off) Any ways I found that the belts didnt snap....now I dont know what else to look for as appose to why my engine wont start.... ps whats the best way to do body work on these sheet metal bodys? (besides a rubber mallet of course) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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