Valve body replacement to solve torque bind

[Buhas]

My 06' Outback has been exhibiting the classic torque bind symptoms for more than 6 months. I replaced the transmission fluids and the problem went away only to return a month later.

 

The dealer informed me today the valve body is the culprit for this issue. I asked how they determined and they said "pressure tests".

 

Is the dealer shooting in the dark or can a bad valve body be responsible for the torque bind ?

 

I plan to do the FWD fuse test and the tire measurement to try and diagnose.

[MilesFox]

Valve body as in electronically controlled shifting? could they have used the word solenoid instead?

[porcupine73]

Hm, yes I would try the FWD test then. If that works, it doesn't really make sense that the valve body would be causing the problem. Is that a 5EAT? I believe when they say valve body, they are referring to it and any solenoids on it, probably they want to swap it out as a unit, possibly with a re-manufactured.

[MilesFox]

Dont forget to rule in properly inflated/size tires.

 

my 94 has a slow leak in the front rim, and if it gets low enough, the rear end rumbles, or tires chirp during slow cornering. It goes away when all the tires are aired up at the same time. but mine is desperately due for a flush, anyway.

 

You should bring up the term "duty c" to your mechanic, and have him explain it's function.

 

I would imagine that they just use simple terms, as if the customer would not understand anything if explained in detail. Maybe that is why no one understands their cars, because it is never presented with such detail.

[bheinen74]

A valve body replacement is likely to be nearly as costly as just putting in a brand new trans, not used, not rebuilt, but brand new.

 

Not quite sure why they think it is the valve body out of all the years of subarus, I have never really heard of them going bad.

 

On the SVX, there is an upgraded valve body that firms the shifts up, but I am totally unaware that this is such a common issue on a 2006.

 

Actually, it is not a common issue, and actually I think they are trying to screw you into a costly mistake to swap it.

 

Are you sure your ATF filter was changed? Are you sure you have the proper level of ATF in there? Sounds like something fishy to me.

[Manarius]

I was under the impression that torque bind actually comes from the tailhousing and how there's some sort of shield in it that wears out over time and that causes the binding.

 

The Solenoid C can also stick too, but I've never heard of the valve body being the issue for that particular problem. As mentioned, messy shifting is usually the result of the valve body being messed up.

[idosubaru]

torque bind = 2 things:

1. Duty C replacement or

2. failing clutches.

 

Anything else would be abnormal and require very compelling reasons to travel another direction - i haven't heard any compelling reasons from you yet, sounds like all basic torque bind stuff many of us have fixed and seen many times.

 

I replaced the transmission fluids and the problem went away only to return a month later.

how did you replace it and how many miles on the vehicle? if it helped once, i'd try another full fluid change (multiple drains/refills or flush whichever you prefer) again.

 

The dealer informed me today the valve body is the culprit for this issue.

Unlikely *or* by valve body they meant the rear extension housing which houses the Duty C solenoid valve - but that's a stretch.

 

Is the dealer shooting in the dark or can a bad valve body be responsible for the torque bind ?

this should be easy and they should see this all the time - this is *VERY* common and many of us on here have fixed multiple torque binds. i could probably help you diagnose and fix it in a matter of minutes over the phone (and have done that for friends before), without even touching or seeing the car myself. i'm not offering, i don't have the time unfortunately, i'm just saying this issue is so easy to track down, diagnose, and repair properly 100% of the time that they should have no problem nailing this exactly right.

 

this is a strange failure though - torque bind is typically *caused* meaning poor tire care, lack of fluid changes, improperly towed at some point in it's life, etc. so it often happens on older cars, multiple owners, higher miles, etc. that such a young vehicle with presumably low miles has torque bind is strange.

 

are you not the original owner?

[Buhas]

First of all, thanks for all the replies. It is the valve body as seen here (

) the dealer is talking about. I spoke with them and they knew about the clutches and the duty C. But they were pretty sure it is the valve body as they measured the fluid pressure. They also mentioned they used to blindly replace the solenoid and the clutches only to find out the valve body was the problem. They claim to have seen quite a few of these issues.

 

My question is about measuring the fluid pressure. I should have asked where and how they did that, but I had to get back to work. Is that something the dealer came up with or it is actually a diagnosis procedure ?

 

I put in the FWD fuse and the problem is gone. I closely inspected the tires (GoodYear TripleThread) and they look fine and evenly worn, plenty of thread left. I also checked the pressure in the tires and it was fine.

 

I am the original owner of the car. It is actually an '05 model. The tires are 3 years old (purchased brand new). The car has 85k miles on it. Other than oil, filter, air filter, brake pads and tire rotations there was no other maintenance done (until the transmission fluid change). The transmission fluid was changed at the dealer.

 

So I am not sure what to do next. I am more inclined to go the "classic" route and to inspect the duty C and the clutches. I am not mechanically inclined so I will have to find another shop for a second opinion. For now I will drive it in FWD.

 

I did not get to read all the information on troubleshooting the torque bind. But is there a sure way to confirm the duty C or clutches are the problem rather than the valve body ?

[bheinen74]

Dealer around here would recommend new rear diff first.

 

then they would recommend new center driveshaft.

Then they would recommend something else.

 

All before even doing a fluid change.

 

There are some bad dealers out there.

 

I would get a second opinion. No valve body is bad at 85k.

 

Did they change the filter for the ATF?

 

Your dealers sounds off the wall. Like said, some are bad, and need to be taken down.

[Buhas]

I do not know if the dealer changed the ATF filter. I did not see it on the bill.

 

Since I've been having the torque bind problem for many months, should I expect the clutches are doomed by now ? If that would be the case I am thinking to start with the clutches and the duty C replacement. Anyway I will get a second opinion.

 

My feeling is maybe the dealer starts with the most expensive repair and then if the bind problem does not go away they will say, yes the clutches are also worn out and need to be replaced.

 

Anyone can recommend a good mechanic in Boston NW suburbs ?

[Buhas]

I spoke to a transmission repair shop and they think in the '05 Subaru Outback the duty C is not in the transmission clutches box at the back, but it is in the valve body and is not replaceable by itself.

 

Anyone know if this is true ?

[Buhas]

Ok, the information is now starting to make sense.

The 2005 Subaru Outback non-turbo automatic has 4EAT

The 2005 Subaru Outback turbo (and 6 cyl) automatic has 5EAT.

 

EAT stands for Electronic Automatic Transmission.

 

My 2005 Outback is a 2.5i and it has 4 speeds (4EAT).

[Buhas]

I took the car to a local mechanic for a second opinion. He recommended a transmission fluid flush and refill with synthetic transmission fluid. He claims to have an expensive transmission flush machine (WINS system). He also said the old transmission fluid was dirty and it had lower than expected amount.

 

The torque bind is now 100% fixed. Hopefully it stays that way.

 

This confirms one thing. The dealer I've been to previously is a complete jack-rump roast. Not only did he not do a good job with the transmission fluid replace, but he wanted to install a new valve body to fix the problem.

 

Thanks for all the help. I learned a lot. Dealers like this need to be taken down.

[bheinen74]

Second and third opinions are the way to go most times, along with the great advice you can find on the USMB.

 

Hope you got it fixed.

[unibrook]

Try Cityside Subaru in Belmont, MA. At least ask them for a second opinion.

[Caboobaroo]

OK guys, let me help out a bit.

 

Starting in 2004, Subaru changed the design of the internals of the transmission along with reconfiguring the duty C solenoid. Unfortunately they didn't really get the torque bind issue resolved but instead relocated the solenoid into the valvebody.

 

Start with a flush and see if that helps. I would also try using a better fluid as well.

[bheinen74]

OK guys, let me help out a bit.

 

Starting in 2004, Subaru changed the design of the internals of the transmission along with reconfiguring the duty C solenoid. Unfortunately they didn't really get the torque bind issue resolved but instead relocated the solenoid into the valvebody.

 

Start with a flush and see if that helps. I would also try using a better fluid as well.

 

do you have any documentation sources?

Man this sucks.

I will have to cross anything after 2004 off my list now, even though I whole heartedly attempted to give one a try, for 4 months....and it was the worst subaru i ever had when compared to what i was used to.

[Caboobaroo]

Just recently went through some training with Ohio Diagnostics, the company that makes the Subaru Select Monitor 3 for independent shops. Part of the training was aimed at the newest torque bind issues.

 

Glad this SUS I have my eye on is an '03 ;-)

[feralcoder]

On 12/5/2011 at 6:56 PM, Caboobaroo said:

Starting in 2004, Subaru changed the design of the internals of the transmission along with reconfiguring the duty C solenoid. Unfortunately they didn't really get the torque bind issue resolved but instead relocated the solenoid into the valvebody.

 

On 12/5/2011 at 9:16 PM, bheinen74 said:

do you have any documentation sources

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk7uAWBo-YQSK4YAlJ7pLhfBOX0MMsCY/view
When that link goes stale, search for 5EAT.pdf, maybe, that's how I found it.

On page 50 you'll find the Transfer Solenoid documented, that's performing the function of the old "Duty C", and now lives in the valve body.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

WELL - that might have been useful 10 years ago but seeing as google drive was launched in 2012 and this post is from 2011 it seems unlikely that this link would have applied. 

GD

[feralcoder]

Right, my link couldn't have existed when bheinen74 asked, but it applies now.  I posted more for the benefit of future googlers - I assume most of the original people in the conversation have moved on.  The question of where to find the "Duty C Solenoid" in a 5EAT was one of the reasons I searched out this manual in the first place, it wasn't definitively doc'd in the forum threads I'd found.  But it is now, here.

Edited August 31, 2021 by feralcoder
misattribution

[feralcoder]

I have been working through a torque bind issue myself, and have tried a couple of things along the way which have had some effects, which might be educational for some.  They certainly have been for me.

BACKGROUND:

I upgraded all my suspension bushings to polyurethane, but not my diff carrier and subframe bushings.  I also gave a little 1" lift via King springs and put on larger tires (215/70R16, +1.78" diameter).   After this work I started experiencing torque bind.  I assume that the increased resistance to flex and rotation made evident a problem that was already brewing but not yet apparent.  While figuring out what my problem was (starting with the assumption that it was low-grade wheel hop), I drove about 800 miles with little degradation - the problem only evidenced when accelerating from a stop, and especially while cornering from a stop.  Then, while driving around the steep hills of Tacoma, WA, with many stoplight turns onto uphills, the problem worsened considerably.  I then drove the car home, another 800 miles, without too much more degradation, and I started figuring out what was going on.

After research, my expectation was that I have a failing transfer clutch or solenoid, neither of which I've yet tried to address.  I have tried other things with my ATF, though, which have had some effect.

 

MY WORK:

I started with some fresh ATF, and discovered very dark fluid.  Not black, but pretty ugly.  I'd made a couple of trailer hauls out to a storage unit over a couple mountain passes, and now wish I'd checked the ATF each time.  Live and learn.  A single drain and fill didn't change anything for me.

I'd read another person alleviated their torque bind with a SeaFoam Trans Tune cleanup, so I drained a bit of fluid, added a can of Trans Tune, then got my hot fill level to full again.  This made an immediate great improvement, within 1/2 mile of driving.  Unfortunately, it quickly degraded back to what it was before, maybe a little bit better.  Was the improvement because the Trans Tune thinned the oil and it now had better pressure through a failing solenoid / valve-body?  Was it due to cleaning of the clutch plates or valve body?  I have no idea, curious to hear opinions there.

I added a 2oz tube of LubeGard Shudder Fix, for science, and that made no difference.  I then performed another drain-fill, the fluid was still pretty ugly, not sure how much of that was due to the Trans Tune cleanup vs the leftover from the original abused ATF.  No noticeable improvement to my problem.  Also, after another 50 miles my tranny was making a loud metal-metal clunk when switching between D-R and R-D.

After those 2 drain-fills and the Trans Tune cleanup, I did one more drain-fill and changed the external screw-on filter.  This did improve things quite a bit, but there is still a shudder on acceleration from stop, maybe not quite as bad as right after my suspension and wheel work.  Also, the D-R / R-D clunk has mostly gone away.

 

I WONDER:

I have one hypothesis: The Trans-Tune improved things, either by cleaning my transfer clutch pack or solenoids or valve body, or by viscosity change.  Or maybe friction modification?  Dunno.  But then debris was freed and accumulated in the filter, decreasing pressure and degrading valve body and/or transfer clutch function.  I'm guessing.

I have some reason to believe some of the problem was pressure related, based on the improvement after changing the filter.  Is this a sane conclusion?  For the problem which remains, I'm curious how much is related to the transfer solenoid and/or fluid pressure, vs transfer clutch?  I can't test with the FWD fuse, because my car doesn't have one - VTD involves a planetary front-rear coupling which can't be disengaged, even though it still has the rear transfer clutch.

There's also a locking clutch which locks the center diff, establishing a 'solid' linkage between front and rear.  All the posts I see on torque bind talk about the transfer clutch and its solenoid, usually in a 4EAT context, but could the locking clutch and solenoid also be responsible for torque-bind-like symptoms?

 

FUTURE WORK:

After I buy another 2005 3.0 L.L.Bean I'll pull out this tranny and look inside, hoping to find a clearly worn transfer clutch.  Maybe I'll go deeper.  I've never been inside a tranny, despite years in the SF Bay Area (*ahem*) so I will be posting my findings for feedback when I do.  Worst case, this car becomes spare parts, and I'm OK with that, I made the 200K club.

[brus brother]

could the clunk actually be coming from the drive shaft/u joint complex?

had that issue with my 05

[GeneralDisorder]

It's not the solenoid or the clutch pack. It's the drive and driven drums that hold the clutch pack. They have grooves worn into them from the clutch plates and even though there's no pressure on the apply piston the clutch plates are jammed together because they aren't free to slide apart - they are wedged into the wear grooves in the drums. 

GD

[idosubaru]

Does that have the 4EAT clutch set up or the H6's with VTD set up (maybe that's only on VDC models?)

If it's the 4EAT style then the grooves he just mentioned need smoothed out.  This has been true for decades, very well known wear point.