long travel Outbacks or making Subarus faster and more reliable offroad

[pontoontodd]

Outback sat for at least a few days with the doors open to air out while I drove the Impreza. Didn't realize the dome light was on and the battery was completely dead the next time I went to start it. I tried using the lithium ion jump starter but it wouldn't work. Put it on 1 amp charge for maybe a half hour while I did some other things and then the lithium starter fired it up.

 

 

Checked voltage and it was over 14V so the alternator was charging. I don't think I ran it very long but can't remember. A couple days after that I went to start it and it had a little voltage but wouldn't crank. I was in a hurry so I tried using the jump start feature on the battery charger but it wouldn't quite go. I hooked up the lithium jump starter and it fired right up.  Anybody else use these things and have any tips or tricks?  Or know of a better one?

[scalman]

Outback sat for at least a few days with the doors open to air out while I drove the Impreza. Didn't realize the dome light was on and the battery was completely dead the next time I went to start it. I tried using the lithium ion jump starter but it wouldn't work. Put it on 1 amp charge for maybe a half hour while I did some other things and then the lithium starter fired it up.

 

 

Checked voltage and it was over 14V so the alternator was charging. I don't think I ran it very long but can't remember. A couple days after that I went to start it and it had a little voltage but wouldn't crank. I was in a hurry so I tried using the jump start feature on the battery charger but it wouldn't quite go. I hooked up the lithium jump starter and it fired right up.  Anybody else use these things and have any tips or tricks?  Or know of a better one?

always wanted to test it but never did. think they are cool if they work properly anytime you need. and not just after recharging them.  my version of that is  spare battery in trunk . ha. 

[Numbchux]

I have a super cheap chinese one I bought on Amazon.

 

Seems to have good power, but the clamps do not reliably get a good connection. I find it mildly annoying, but workable, it started my '94 Ford E-150 351 with a very weak battery last week. My wife used it once (I was talking her through it over the phone), and she was really freaked out by that.

[scalman]

Yes, I had something in mind like the top one.  I would probably use plastic totes/bins so you could slide them out and get at everything easily.  The bottom one looks nice but it's blocking the rear windows and they obviously don't drive where and how I do.  Just look at that glass jar sitting on a wooden shelf.  A few issues I've thought of:

A stock sized tire doesn't really fit in the wheel well of a 2002, let alone something a little bigger.  So either the spare would go elsewhere, maybe stood up like I did in my 99, or the wheel well would have to be modified.  If it has no tire in it, I'd like to use it for water and/or fuel storage.

It is nice to have a backseat sometimes but it takes up a lot of space.  Especially since my 99 doesn't anymore.  So if I did a platform I'd try to make at least the front part easy to remove and put the backseat back in or fit over the backseat (like the one you posted).  But then you can't fit much under the front half of the platform.

 

I'm really not sure how I'd do the interior.  My main thoughts were to make a front (and maybe rear) bumper, skidplates, additional headlights, and long travel suspension.  Try to keep it fairly light, at least not a lot heavier than stock.  Probably not at first but I think a 6MT and R180 would have to replace the stock trans and diff.  I need to take more measurements but I think I could make a lower first gear so I don't need a low range.  Something like 4.5:1 would be good enough with an H6 and a light car.

What about front and rear suspension on 2nd gen vs older that you build now? How you find that on modification? Does that caf have less possibilities or more? Like to make it longer travel or flex or some other mods on 2nd gen. Or you will just go for expencive struts on it again as you have now . and is that all worth it that extra travel you get

[pontoontodd]

What about front and rear suspension on 2nd gen vs older that you build now? How you find that on modification? Does that caf have less possibilities or more? Like to make it longer travel or flex or some other mods on 2nd gen. Or you will just go for expencive struts on it again as you have now . and is that all worth it that extra travel you get

 

The front suspension is basically the same.  I think even the new Subarus still have the same front struts and spindles, but the lower control arms are different.

 

The rear suspension on the 2000+ Outbacks is multilink.  That should make it easier and cheaper to make it long travel.  I haven't gone into it far but I measured it once without the stock shock and I think we can get over 12" of travel.  I even still have the coilover shocks we initially used for the a-arm front suspension we built for my 99 that are about the right length and should be decent springing and valving.

 

Yes, I think the long travel suspension is the best modification we've made to these cars for what we're trying to do.  The increased travel is only part of it, getting the spring rate and damping right is when you can really drive hard and not get thrashed around or bottom out.  And since they're stronger you don't bend the struts.  A lot of that is because even though the stock rear struts have 8" of travel they basically sit on the bumpstops at ride height, so it doesn't take much to bottom out, and that's when they bend.

[scalman]

The front suspension is basically the same.  I think even the new Subarus still have the same front struts and spindles, but the lower control arms are different.

 

The rear suspension on the 2000+ Outbacks is multilink.  That should make it easier and cheaper to make it long travel.  I haven't gone into it far but I measured it once without the stock shock and I think we can get over 12" of travel.  I even still have the coilover shocks we initially used for the a-arm front suspension we built for my 99 that are about the right length and should be decent springing and valving.

 

Yes, I think the long travel suspension is the best modification we've made to these cars for what we're trying to do.  The increased travel is only part of it, getting the spring rate and damping right is when you can really drive hard and not get thrashed around or bottom out.  And since they're stronger you don't bend the struts.  A lot of that is because even though the stock rear struts have 8" of travel they basically sit on the bumpstops at ride height, so it doesn't take much to bottom out, and that's when they bend.

 

cool thx and what about just change struts in thses models to something else. like from other cars , can they be fitted there , or its not worth it. like i made lift 5cm , but with that i not gained any travel at all just ground clearance. thats why i need to go slow in offroad roads not to brake stuff. what if i find 5cm longer struts from other car that fits my car and use them then in full way. maybe i cant find . im just thinking. 

you guys here put lots money onto old cars without problems. like modify lots stuff to small subarus that not jeeps and not 4x4. so why try to make 4x4 from subaru ? if i would have money to modify my subaru so much with such expencive parts then i would had buy jeep or toyota from start. 

i mean like you take subaru that cost maybe $500 all car and put struts that cost maybe 1k. im sorry but that i dont understand. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

cool thx and what about just change struts in thses models to something else. like from other cars , can they be fitted there , or its not worth it. like i made lift 5cm , but with that i not gained any travel at all just ground clearance. thats why i need to go slow in offroad roads not to brake stuff. what if i find 5cm longer struts from other car that fits my car and use them then in full way. maybe i cant find . im just thinking. 

you guys here put lots money onto old cars without problems. like modify lots stuff to small subarus that not jeeps and not 4x4. so why try to make 4x4 from subaru ? if i would have money to modify my subaru so much with such expencive parts then i would had buy jeep or toyota from start. 

i mean like you take subaru that cost maybe $500 all car and put struts that cost maybe 1k. im sorry but that i dont understand. 

 

I don't know of any other cheap struts that would directly fit Subarus.  Hotbits sells the cheapest long travel off road Subaru struts I know of but I've heard they don't hold up to really hard use.

 

Most human decisions aren't rational.  Most modifications to cars are money wasted in the eyes of a rational person.  But I'll try to rationalize my decisions for you regardless...

 

In the US Jeeps and Toyotas aren't any more expensive than Subarus.  I agree if you want to do crawling and really hard trails those have a real low range, lockers, more articulation, a real frame, and can fit bigger tires than a Subaru.

 

My goal isn't to do rock crawling.  There isn't much of that around here, it doesn't really interest me, and there's plenty of other dirt roads and trails that aren't extremely challenging.  I'd rather drive moderately fast on dirt roads and trails so I can see more things and cover more ground and have enough capability to do 99% of the legal dirt roads in the US.  I've been told that a Cherokee or truck with the right long travel kit rides well, and I'd like to ride in one sometime to find out.  None of the Jeeps or trucks I've ridden in or gone trail riding with could even keep up with a stock Subaru since they ride so rough.  A side by side, ATV, or dirt bike could go at the pace we do, but they're definitely not as comfortable for long highway trips or in bad weather.  So the Subaru seems like the best choice for me.  I can drive it hundreds or thousands of miles on the highway to where I want to go and drive on almost any dirt road I can find.  Also in general it seems like Subarus are more reliable than a Jeep or side by side.

[scalman]

I don't know of any other cheap struts that would directly fit Subarus.  Hotbits sells the cheapest long travel off road Subaru struts I know of but I've heard they don't hold up to really hard use.

 

Most human decisions aren't rational.  Most modifications to cars are money wasted in the eyes of a rational person.  But I'll try to rationalize my decisions for you regardless...

 

In the US Jeeps and Toyotas aren't any more expensive than Subarus.  I agree if you want to do crawling and really hard trails those have a real low range, lockers, more articulation, a real frame, and can fit bigger tires than a Subaru.

 

My goal isn't to do rock crawling.  There isn't much of that around here, it doesn't really interest me, and there's plenty of other dirt roads and trails that aren't extremely challenging.  I'd rather drive moderately fast on dirt roads and trails so I can see more things and cover more ground and have enough capability to do 99% of the legal dirt roads in the US.  I've been told that a Cherokee or truck with the right long travel kit rides well, and I'd like to ride in one sometime to find out.  None of the Jeeps or trucks I've ridden in or gone trail riding with could even keep up with a stock Subaru since they ride so rough.  A side by side, ATV, or dirt bike could go at the pace we do, but they're definitely not as comfortable for long highway trips or in bad weather.  So the Subaru seems like the best choice for me.  I can drive it hundreds or thousands of miles on the highway to where I want to go and drive on almost any dirt road I can find.  Also in general it seems like Subarus are more reliable than a Jeep or side by side.

i love my subaru even if its rusty and maybe in worse shape as yours. but i just think of all times your cars body cracked and splitted and something broke and stuff, that if you would have some jeep kinda car it would be just fine maybe. 

its shame we no have any options for some other kinda of struts. like higher ones . well we do have coilovers sure but thats for different reason. so your car is for going hard . but then for trips too. but you have all that cage stuff inside it . so its kinda no trip car , but then maybe it is for you. 

sometimes i say myself something and then i think what i just said . i mean i love jeep and would love test some jeep grand sherokke with solid axles offroad and it got decent traction control too. even without diff locks it goes good. 

but i love subaru for that is not 4x4 but i goes like one or similar. i will put more strenght to my car and will test it properly in time i think. still go fast on bad roads i wouldnt do that as you doing. and thats because of your struts i guess ?

Edited November 28, 2017 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

i love my subaru even if its rusty and maybe in worse shape as yours. but i just think of all times your cars body cracked and splitted and something broke and stuff, that if you would have some jeep kinda car it would be just fine maybe. 

its shame we no have any options for some other kinda of struts. like higher ones . well we do have coilovers sure but thats for different reason. so your car is for going hard . but then for trips too. but you have all that cage stuff inside it . so its kinda no trip car , but then maybe it is for you. 

sometimes i say myself something and then i think what i just said . i mean i love jeep and would love test some jeep grand sherokke with solid axles offroad and it got decent traction control too. even without diff locks it goes good. 

but i love subaru for that is not 4x4 but i goes like one or similar. i will put more strenght to my car and will test it properly in time i think. still go fast on bad roads i wouldnt do that as you doing. and thats because of your struts i guess ?

 

Many of the problems with my 99 Outback stem from the fact that it has been driven for almost 20 years and 240,000 miles on salty roads.

It is possible a Jeep or truck would have had fewer issues but like I said, I've never been around a remotely stock truck that can maintain the pace we drive at, even with the stock Subaru suspension.

You can buy long travel struts, you can buy lift springs, there are options for Subarus, but none of them are cheap.

The cage definitely takes away from the practicality of the car, but mainly it makes the backseat impractical.  We did just drive 5700 miles in it in two weeks, it's not that bad.

I have ridden in and driven some serious four wheel drive trucks and it is impressive what they can go over.  But they don't ride as well as the Subaru, especially with long travel struts.

[scalman]

Many of the problems with my 99 Outback stem from the fact that it has been driven for almost 20 years and 240,000 miles on salty roads.

It is possible a Jeep or truck would have had fewer issues but like I said, I've never been around a remotely stock truck that can maintain the pace we drive at, even with the stock Subaru suspension.

You can buy long travel struts, you can buy lift springs, there are options for Subarus, but none of them are cheap.

The cage definitely takes away from the practicality of the car, but mainly it makes the backseat impractical.  We did just drive 5700 miles in it in two weeks, it's not that bad.

I have ridden in and driven some serious four wheel drive trucks and it is impressive what they can go over.  But they don't ride as well as the Subaru, especially with long travel struts.

Yeh no doubt some your early videos tests of long travel looks impressive very much. But then other parts gets more usage too like cv axles do they not? So you need to custom make some parts as you did. As i understand its not just bolt in strut andbyou good to go ?

[pontoontodd]

Yeh no doubt some your early videos tests of long travel looks impressive very much. But then other parts gets more usage too like cv axles do they not? So you need to custom make some parts as you did. As i understand its not just bolt in strut andbyou good to go ?

 

We do have to run the front wheel drive Legacy front axles since they have a little more plunge travel.  I already had them on my car since they're bigger than the normal Subaru front axles.  CV axles seem to live about as long as with the stock suspension.  Occasionally the boots start to leak and you have to repack and reboot them.  I think I've only replaced two since we did the long travel because they were making noise.

 

Inner tie rods seem to get loose faster than before, probably because we're driving harder.  That Vegas to Reno in particular is hard on equipment.  Other than that ball joints, wheel bearings, etc seem to last longer than with the stock struts if anything.

 

It's basically bolt in the struts and go.  We replace the front control arms with fabricated when we do the struts to get the wheels a little farther out and forward.  Probably why we need to use the Legacy front wheel drive axles.  Only other thing is mounting the reservoirs somewhere in the wheel wells.  With the oversized tires some wheel well hammering was required on my car so they don't rub at full bump and steering.

[scalman]

We do have to run the front wheel drive Legacy front axles since they have a little more plunge travel.  I already had them on my car since they're bigger than the normal Subaru front axles.  CV axles seem to live about as long as with the stock suspension.  Occasionally the boots start to leak and you have to repack and reboot them.  I think I've only replaced two since we did the long travel because they were making noise.

 

Inner tie rods seem to get loose faster than before, probably because we're driving harder.  That Vegas to Reno in particular is hard on equipment.  Other than that ball joints, wheel bearings, etc seem to last longer than with the stock struts if anything.

 

It's basically bolt in the struts and go.  We replace the front control arms with fabricated when we do the struts to get the wheels a little farther out and forward.  Probably why we need to use the Legacy front wheel drive axles.  Only other thing is mounting the reservoirs somewhere in the wheel wells.  With the oversized tires some wheel well hammering was required on my car so they don't rub at full bump and steering.

so how much you find on trips that long travel helps you , or make your drive more comfy ? did you tried it more on offroad situations and you got out of them better because of long travel or just because subaru ? 

so with H6 engine you got there VDC yeah ? 

[jf1sf5]

I too have a long travel suspension setup (HotBits), but not as custom as pontoontodd's.

 

My setup is more for "crawling" and because the wheels stay longer in contact with the ground it sure offers much better traction as there still has no locking diffs for our Subarus (Rally on offroadsubarus.com is actually making one)

[pontoontodd]

so how much you find on trips that long travel helps you , or make your drive more comfy ? did you tried it more on offroad situations and you got out of them better because of long travel or just because subaru ? 

so with H6 engine you got there VDC yeah ? 

 

It rides probably a little harsher than stock on the highway.  But it's the highway so it's smooth.  On the big potholes it's definitely better than stock though.

 

There are probably some things we can do with the long travel we couldn't do with the stock struts.  But mainly you can just go faster.  One thing I can think of off the top of my head is that there is often a ditch or berm at the base of a hillclimb.  We need momentum to get up hills, especially before the H6 and low range, but also since there still isn't a ton of articulation and/or lockers.  So with the low range you can get a better run at hills and drive over the ditch or berm much faster.

 

No, I purposely found a donor car without VDC.  I've read that makes the engine swap much more difficult.

 

I too have a long travel suspension setup (HotBits), but not as custom as pontoontodd's.

 

My setup is more for "crawling" and because the wheels stay longer in contact with the ground it sure offers much better traction as there still has no locking diffs for our Subarus (Rally on offroadsubarus.com is actually making one)

 

 

One thing the low range has made really obvious is the limited articulation and open diffs.  The long travel and lack of sway bars helps, but it's still not great.  Also over the winter we went to stiffer springs to raise the ride height a couple inches, so that hurts the articulation a little.

 

I still think momentum is key with the Subarus.  If you add power and/or low range and had lockers or even good limited slips and really got good traction, you're just going to break the 5MT and R160.  Much easier to just stick with the EJ, no low range, and just go fast.  When possible, on long hillclimbs sometimes you just need the low range.

[scalman]

Pre vdc subaru awd systems are not that good, but with vdc you gettings kinda virtual lockers. Much better and lets you go slow and dont brake anything.
But older 4eat can make 50/50 lock switch to lock center at 50/50 so you got at least decent split to help in some places.
I dont think lockers would do much here to us. Still not great flex or articulation .so we must just adapt and find other ways of going forward.
I saw videos eith forester with welded rear dif so its locked and center locked at 50/50 , still its not making any miracles. I found my vdc even with weaker engine making miracles enough for me.
I know if i go faster i will brake something so i no do that. I found that my car is pretty good at crawling.

as newer land cruisers go like tanks without any lockers just neat traction control and you good to go. similar subarus can go really far if done right with right tires and ground clearance. even with weak flex. i like often to put my car to limits of flex and see what it will do, how it would resolve situation. never get stuck yet anywere but i no do crazy things to see what will happen. this my daily driver and this how i go to work and back and everywhere else. i cant just go to bad roads and brake car for fun . 

Edited November 30, 2017 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

Last Saturday I drove the 99 Outback down to the Badlands with a couple of friends. Our friend drove his Forester and met us there.  We tried to find the figure eight and stumbled on the dragon's tail, so we went through that. They thought that was entertaining. We tried to find some new trails we hadn't been on and succeeded, mainly south of the entrance. We drove from the big concrete building down to the field. The woods at the bottom were somewhat flooded and we headed up to the railroad tracks and drove the length of that and up to the top of one of the areas with a bunch of fairly long steep hillclimbs where we've jumped our offroad race buggy before. We walked along the top and I found one that looked perfect for a good jump. It was fairly steep and smooth and had a sharp peak with a drop and a fairly clear landing area. My friend took video with his phone from the top and I drove to the bottom. As we were headed to the jump I asked my friend riding with me what he thought would be a good speed to start, 30 or 40? And he said, ya, probably 30 or 40. I shifted into second at the bottom of the hill and just maintained speed at part throttle the whole way up. We probably hit it at 40mph and we both instantly knew I had gone too fast. I basically landed in a ditch beyond the flat area and got a little more air off a small berm. We were fairly lucky the only obvious damage was a broken corner light and cracked windshield. Judging by the tire tracks we were off the ground for 40' or so. Our friend showed us the video and we were 6-8 feet in the air. My friend got out to get some other video and we set up my old gopro on the ground to film the car going over it. Our other friend got in and we hit the jump at 30mph and got no air. Then we hit it at 35mph and got nearly as much air as the first time. I decided that would be a good time to stop.  Here are a couple screenshots from the video under the car on the 35mph jump.

 

 

 

My friends tried in the Forester but it didn't have enough power to maintain enough speed to get any air. The first half of the day I kept telling our friend who hadn't been there we had to find the figure eight, and we asked a few people who had no idea what we were talking about. He kept wondering why I thought it was so important we find the figure eight. Once we finally got there I went around a few times and he thought it was awesome. We let him and our other friend drive around it a bunch of times and we were all cracking up the entire time. Then I suggested we go down the steep hill at the southeast end of the stream and my friend with the Forester said he needed to take a few laps of the figure eight first, even though we've done it a half dozen times and he and our friend riding with him were of course cracking up the whole time. We drove to the bottom of the steep hill going down to the stream in the Outback, turned around, and I drove back up it at half throttle in low range.  I have struggled to get up this hill with the four cylinder and no low range, you can't get much of a run at it.  With the H6 and low range it was easy. Trying to line up for the rough hillclimb on the other side of the stream I got the Outback stuck and it took a little while to pull me sideways with the Forester so I had a clear shot. I couldn't make it in low range going fairly slow so I put it in high range and just bombed up it and made it to the top. My friend tried a few times in the Forester but couldn't make it up the rough climb. He took a side trail once he got lined up and spun his way to the top. We took some muddy trails with a lot of standing water to the quarry.  We eventually got to the quarry and made sandwiches. We watched a couple of Jeeps do some fairly impressive climbs and I tried a few in the Outback with the low range with mixed results. At one point it sounded like something in the steering column was rubbing or catching but the steering worked fine and the noise went away. It took us a while to get back out of that area into the rest of the park. Eventually we found the stream and followed that down to the tubes. There used to be a gap in a concrete wall before the tubes but it was blocked by a log so we drove up out of the stream. I tried going down a trail past the wall and then discovered it had a 3' drop down to the stream. I tried backing out in reverse low range but the trail was so rutted I couldn't make it out and reverse started acting up. They eventually yanked me out with the strap a few feet at a time but there was some clutch smell from the Forester. Reverse did work in the Outback but you have to hold it in under any load or it wants to pop out. It doesn't seem to skip teeth so I'm wondering if the fork is bent. We drove down to the stream on an easy trail and went through the tubes. There was a larger dropoff than we thought, didn't hurt anything but it drove worse than it looked on foot. Drove the rest of the stream. The Forester's LR tire was flat, so we aired that up. Looked like it was leaking all around the bead but not terribly. Took an easy hillclimb back into one of the open areas and headed back towards the entrance since it was about 4:30. We did the hillclimb by the entrance pond and went around the bowl near the entrance and headed out just before they closed. Went to the Mexican restaurant in Attica and then aired up some tires, removed the flags, and went home. Car ran well on the way home, cruise shut off a few times.

 

Drove a couple hours yesterday and cruise worked fine the whole time.  We'll probably take the trans out tomorrow.

[scalman]

Last Saturday I drove the 99 Outback down to the Badlands with a couple of friends. Our friend drove his Forester and met us there.  We tried to find the figure eight and stumbled on the dragon's tail, so we went through that. They thought that was entertaining. We tried to find some new trails we hadn't been on and succeeded, mainly south of the entrance. We drove from the big concrete building down to the field. The woods at the bottom were somewhat flooded and we headed up to the railroad tracks and drove the length of that and up to the top of one of the areas with a bunch of fairly long steep hillclimbs where we've jumped our offroad race buggy before. We walked along the top and I found one that looked perfect for a good jump. It was fairly steep and smooth and had a sharp peak with a drop and a fairly clear landing area. My friend took video with his phone from the top and I drove to the bottom. As we were headed to the jump I asked my friend riding with me what he thought would be a good speed to start, 30 or 40? And he said, ya, probably 30 or 40. I shifted into second at the bottom of the hill and just maintained speed at part throttle the whole way up. We probably hit it at 40mph and we both instantly knew I had gone too fast. I basically landed in a ditch beyond the flat area and got a little more air off a small berm. We were fairly lucky the only obvious damage was a broken corner light and cracked windshield. Judging by the tire tracks we were off the ground for 40' or so. Our friend showed us the video and we were 6-8 feet in the air. My friend got out to get some other video and we set up my old gopro on the ground to film the car going over it. Our other friend got in and we hit the jump at 30mph and got no air. Then we hit it at 35mph and got nearly as much air as the first time. I decided that would be a good time to stop.  Here are a couple screenshots from the video under the car on the 35mph jump.

 

 

 

My friends tried in the Forester but it didn't have enough power to maintain enough speed to get any air. The first half of the day I kept telling our friend who hadn't been there we had to find the figure eight, and we asked a few people who had no idea what we were talking about. He kept wondering why I thought it was so important we find the figure eight. Once we finally got there I went around a few times and he thought it was awesome. We let him and our other friend drive around it a bunch of times and we were all cracking up the entire time. Then I suggested we go down the steep hill at the southeast end of the stream and my friend with the Forester said he needed to take a few laps of the figure eight first, even though we've done it a half dozen times and he and our friend riding with him were of course cracking up the whole time. We drove to the bottom of the steep hill going down to the stream in the Outback, turned around, and I drove back up it at half throttle in low range.  I have struggled to get up this hill with the four cylinder and no low range, you can't get much of a run at it.  With the H6 and low range it was easy. Trying to line up for the rough hillclimb on the other side of the stream I got the Outback stuck and it took a little while to pull me sideways with the Forester so I had a clear shot. I couldn't make it in low range going fairly slow so I put it in high range and just bombed up it and made it to the top. My friend tried a few times in the Forester but couldn't make it up the rough climb. He took a side trail once he got lined up and spun his way to the top. We took some muddy trails with a lot of standing water to the quarry.  We eventually got to the quarry and made sandwiches. We watched a couple of Jeeps do some fairly impressive climbs and I tried a few in the Outback with the low range with mixed results. At one point it sounded like something in the steering column was rubbing or catching but the steering worked fine and the noise went away. It took us a while to get back out of that area into the rest of the park. Eventually we found the stream and followed that down to the tubes. There used to be a gap in a concrete wall before the tubes but it was blocked by a log so we drove up out of the stream. I tried going down a trail past the wall and then discovered it had a 3' drop down to the stream. I tried backing out in reverse low range but the trail was so rutted I couldn't make it out and reverse started acting up. They eventually yanked me out with the strap a few feet at a time but there was some clutch smell from the Forester. Reverse did work in the Outback but you have to hold it in under any load or it wants to pop out. It doesn't seem to skip teeth so I'm wondering if the fork is bent. We drove down to the stream on an easy trail and went through the tubes. There was a larger dropoff than we thought, didn't hurt anything but it drove worse than it looked on foot. Drove the rest of the stream. The Forester's LR tire was flat, so we aired that up. Looked like it was leaking all around the bead but not terribly. Took an easy hillclimb back into one of the open areas and headed back towards the entrance since it was about 4:30. We did the hillclimb by the entrance pond and went around the bowl near the entrance and headed out just before they closed. Went to the Mexican restaurant in Attica and then aired up some tires, removed the flags, and went home. Car ran well on the way home, cruise shut off a few times.

 

Drove a couple hours yesterday and cruise worked fine the whole time.  We'll probably take the trans out tomorrow.

wow you jumped. so what you brake this time ? i wouldnt jump that with my car no way. shame forester couldn't jump that, would be interesting to see results. 

[pontoontodd]

wow you jumped. so what you brake this time ? i wouldnt jump that with my car no way. shame forester couldn't jump that, would be interesting to see results. 

 

Hahhaha.  Maybe you can't read english well, but it cracked the windshield and one of the corner lights popped out.  Ordered 9003 HID bulbs so I can switch to the early Outback style one piece lights.  Crack is still small, just the corner of the windshield right now.  We've jumped the car many times, this was probably the most extreme looking, not necessarily the most air.  Doesn't seem to hurt anything.

 

It cracks me up that you would never jump your car but you think it's a shame we couldn't do that jump with the Forester.

[scalman]

Hahhaha.  Maybe you can't read english well, but it cracked the windshield and one of the corner lights popped out.  Ordered 9003 HID bulbs so I can switch to the early Outback style one piece lights.  Crack is still small, just the corner of the windshield right now.  We've jumped the car many times, this was probably the most extreme looking, not necessarily the most air.  Doesn't seem to hurt anything.

 

It cracks me up that you would never jump your car but you think it's a shame we couldn't do that jump with the Forester.

i thought there are more serious cracks in car or metal bend or smt. then good. im happy for your jump. 

well forester could test it for me so i would now how normal suspension would hold it . haha.and you are master of fixing things so forester in good hands.  my car more rusty then that forester i guess. and forester its normal 2.0 NA and manual ? so its very weak . no wonder it cant keep up with your 3.0. forester 2.0 turbo would be different business there. 

man i so want to have 3.0 too. would be much better. i would go for my next car 3rd gen outback 3.0R with 250 hp. 

so where is video of that jump ? or at least make some short gif animation . 

you think that long travel suspension let you jump and land safely , or just more power. i mean first weak i bought car it was winter and i was flying in snow fields and catch some big bump , so my strut dislocated himself on top. then other time spring broke. 

would be interesting to see how your car landed on front wheels do they reach limit of that suspension and what parts got most hit. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by scalman

[pontoontodd]

i thought there are more serious cracks in car or metal bend or smt. then good. im happy for your jump. 

well forester could test it for me so i would now how normal suspension would hold it . haha.and you are master of fixing things so forester in good hands.  my car more rusty then that forester i guess. and forester its normal 2.0 NA and manual ? so its very weak . no wonder it cant keep up with your 3.0. forester 2.0 turbo would be different business there. 

man i so want to have 3.0 too. would be much better. i would go for my next car 3rd gen outback 3.0R with 250 hp. 

so where is video of that jump ? or at least make some short gif animation . 

you think that long travel suspension let you jump and land safely , or just more power. i mean first weak i bought car it was winter and i was flying in snow fields and catch some big bump , so my strut dislocated himself on top. then other time spring broke. 

would be interesting to see how your car landed on front wheels do they reach limit of that suspension and what parts got most hit. 

 

His Forester has long travel struts now.  EJ25 and 5MT.  There's a big somewhat loose climb leading up to that jump.  His Forester can normally keep up with the Outback now that it has long travel.

I still have a bunch of videos to edit.  I'll post them here as I get them done.  In the meantime this video has a few jumps we've done:

 

The long travel lets you jump without breaking things.

[pontoontodd]

Since the transmission in the 99 Outback was popping out of reverse under load unless you held the shifter I decided we should take it out and take it apart.  The last few times we've removed and installed Subaru transmissions, we've just balanced/strapped them to the floor jack and had a couple guys balancing/wrestling it in and out.  With my jackstands all the way up we would generally have to slide the trans off the jack to slide it out of the car.  We thought about getting the car up higher but then the jack wouldn't lift high enough to support the trans.  So I made a tilting bracket that bolts to the bottom of the trans and goes into the floor jack.

 

 

 

 

Here is how it bolts to the trans.

 

 

 

That made it much easier to get the trans out and down.  We were even able to tilt the bellhousing down far enough to roll it out the front of the car on the floor jack.

 

Took the trans apart and the reverse idler is definitely damaged.  Some teeth are worse than others.  It probably only takes one or two bad ones to kick it out of gear.

 

 

Here is the reverse output gear.  It's a little easier to see in person than in this picture, but the rear half of the teeth (bottom of picture) are bent or twisted in a direction that pushes it out of gear under load. 

 

 

I should really replace that while the transmission is apart but I don't look forward to taking that whole shaft assembly apart and putting it all back together.  I have a good reverse idler I could just swap out and put it back together today.  The idler is $66 at the dealer and the reverse output gear with hub is $150.  I am leaning towards just buying those new and waiting a few days.  The brass spacer I made seems to line up the gears perfectly but seeing this I think I should make a narrower one so the idler gear pushes against the spacer rather than being pushed out of gear.  Any thoughts on any of that?  Anything else I should check/replace while it's apart?  Everything else looked good and was working fine when we took it out.

[scalman]

Since the transmission in the 99 Outback was popping out of reverse under load unless you held the shifter I decided we should take it out and take it apart.  The last few times we've removed and installed Subaru transmissions, we've just balanced/strapped them to the floor jack and had a couple guys balancing/wrestling it in and out.  With my jackstands all the way up we would generally have to slide the trans off the jack to slide it out of the car.  We thought about getting the car up higher but then the jack wouldn't lift high enough to support the trans.  So I made a tilting bracket that bolts to the bottom of the trans and goes into the floor jack.

 

 

 

 

Here is how it bolts to the trans.

 

 

 

That made it much easier to get the trans out and down.  We were even able to tilt the bellhousing down far enough to roll it out the front of the car on the floor jack.

 

Took the trans apart and the reverse idler is definitely damaged.  Some teeth are worse than others.  It probably only takes one or two bad ones to kick it out of gear.

 

 

Here is the reverse output gear.  It's a little easier to see in person than in this picture, but the rear half of the teeth (bottom of picture) are bent or twisted in a direction that pushes it out of gear under load. 

 

 

I should really replace that while the transmission is apart but I don't look forward to taking that whole shaft assembly apart and putting it all back together.  I have a good reverse idler I could just swap out and put it back together today.  The idler is $66 at the dealer and the reverse output gear with hub is $150.  I am leaning towards just buying those new and waiting a few days.  The brass spacer I made seems to line up the gears perfectly but seeing this I think I should make a narrower one so the idler gear pushes against the spacer rather than being pushed out of gear.  Any thoughts on any of that?  Anything else I should check/replace while it's apart?  Everything else looked good and was working fine when we took it out.

thats cool job gain as allways. but why so many parts just braking on your car really ? do you using them too hardcore or what ? 

[pontoontodd]

thats cool job gain as allways. but why so many parts just braking on your car really ? do you using them too hardcore or what ? 

 

I'm not completely sure why reverse was starting to go.  The spacer might have actually hurt, using reverse in low range is probably a bad idea, and the climb I was trying to back out of was flexing the car so that wheels were leaving the ground.  It was still working when we took it apart, I'd just rather fix things before they fail completely.

[scalman]

I'm not completely sure why reverse was starting to go.  The spacer might have actually hurt, using reverse in low range is probably a bad idea, and the climb I was trying to back out of was flexing the car so that wheels were leaving the ground.  It was still working when we took it apart, I'd just rather fix things before they fail completely.

yeah some troubles with manual. as much as i read about it you must be pretty careful with it.

so anyway what kind of long travel forester using now ?  same as yours ? i disconnected rear sway bar again for little better flex , as i have rear LSD that might hep me in some situations. even couple cm counts for getting grip. or inches haha. 

so where your videos ? you have some new ones ? they not ready yet ?  i really liked your videos i watched them all i think about outback, before i bought mine even. 

can you give some advice what else i could do to my 2nd gen car , maybe something diy ? , long travel its too much costing for me. so those no go. 

[pontoontodd]

yeah some troubles with manual. as much as i read about it you must be pretty careful with it.

so anyway what kind of long travel forester using now ?  same as yours ? i disconnected rear sway bar again for little better flex , as i have rear LSD that might hep me in some situations. even couple cm counts for getting grip. or inches haha. 

so where your videos ? you have some new ones ? they not ready yet ?  i really liked your videos i watched them all i think about outback, before i bought mine even. 

can you give some advice what else i could do to my 2nd gen car , maybe something diy ? , long travel its too much costing for me. so those no go. 

 

Yes, we made the same long travel struts for the Forester as we've been using on the Outback.

Go you youtube and look up channel pontoontodd.  I am uploading one right now, and have four more to edit this winter.

You can read through this thread for ideas.  In the first post I listed modifications we've done with most important at the top.  If you won't buy better struts I would at least look into lift springs.  In your case I'd save your money until you can buy a rust free car.  I've learned that the hard way.

Just go out, drive around on backroads and trails with at least one other car, have a good time, and see what you want to improve.