Timing Belt and Idler Pulley Replacement Failure?

[suebee60]

Ok, I need a gut check here. I was recently driving my 03 Baja when, according to the mechanic, one of the timing belt idler pulleys locked down causing the belt to break causing catastrophic engine damage to the tune of 4-4.5k. What's making this really tough for me is that about 15 months ago and less than 30k miles I had the timing belt replaced along with a new water pump, seal kit to the engine, plugs, resurfacing the head and then some. I believe all in I spent about 3.5k.

Some background is when I took the vehicle in I felt I was either using or losing oil as I was having to add oil about every 2 weeks. After having the car in the shop about 3 times, I was never really satisfied the leak problem was fixed as I was still putting in about a half quart a week, but oddly the amount of loss would vary, some weeks a half quart, another week none, the next week 1. The shop manager was obviously aggrivated with me and so I just gave up and kept pouring oil in it when needed.

Fast forward to now. When I had my Baja towed in, I was shocked when the mechanic told me that when the belt was changed, they failed to change the idler pullies with the exception of 1. He seemed a little lost for an explanation as to why they would have done it that way himself stating to me that he ALLWAYS changed the idler pullies when he did a timing belt replacement. He said that even if they looked ok, the odds of them outliving the new timing belt were slim and so replacement was a must.  When I spoke to a friend who had her Outback in a different dealshiper around the same time, she told me that they told her they would not do the timing belt without changing the idler pulleys.

So here I am, I'm no mechanic and honestly when I spent $3500 dollars trying to get my vehicle into good condition, hoping it would last me at least into my quickly approaching retirement, feeling like I was being responsible and getting the necessary maintenance done to keep my car in good working order, I just took it on faith that everything that needed to be done with regard to the timing belt was being done. I had no idea to be honest there were 3 idler pulleys that needed to be replaced so I didn't question it when I got the invoice. Afterall, they are the experts.

So I'm just sick. I really can't afford the extra 4k to fix something that I feel llike I already spent the money to prevent having happen in the first place. I don't want to be a B; but I really feel like this problem was caused by a failure on the part of the shop that did the original job  to do it correctly. Am I wrong? Is it possible that this is just bad luck and could not be forseen by the mechanics that changed the belt originally? I'm at a loss and just need the opinion of some folks with a little more experience and understanding of the system at play here. I'm hesitant to go back to the dealership, as I said I think I wore out my welcome with them over the oil leak never being resolved to my satisfaction, yet I really feel in my gut that this is their mistake. Any advice? Should I complain, just let it go? I'm just not sure.

[xdeadeye1]

In my opinion.   You should be outraged.   You shouldn't feel guilty at all for being upset.  Anyone in their right mind would change out all the idler pulleys with the new belt. 

I don't know the law.  But this could be something you consider for small claims court.     Good luck.

Don't let it go. 

[afterbang]

I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you are experiencing with your Baja. Whenever timing belt jobs are performed at the shop I work for, we use the Gates kit without the water pump and buy either an Paraut or OEM water pump, depending on the customer's budget. The shop you had work performed at is right about one thing, all the idlers, the tensioner, and the water pump need to be replaced when a timing belt is replaced, which didn't happen on your vehicle. I have seen timing belt failures occur on Subarus that well surpass the 105k mark without being changed, and it's usually the cogged idler seizing that causes the belt failure, not the belt itself. 

 

In regards to the oil loss, if you're not seeing any external oil leaks, the oil is more than likely being consumed due to carboned up oil control rings or worn piston rings, which I see quite often on Subarus that don't get regular oil changes or use cheap, junk conventional oil. If your Subaru started to consume quite a bit more oil after the head gasket job, it may be due to a mechanic doing a sloppy job and letting debris get into the cylinders, which may have caused accelerated wear to the piston rings. This can only be remedied by removing the pistons, cleaning the heck out of em, and installing new piston rings. If you're going to have the heads off of your engine to install new valves, you should ask about how much more it would be to re-ring your EJ25. Our shop charges $500, and $750 if you want your pistons knurled to eliminate piston slap. 

 

As far as you having any grounds to pursue legal action, I could only see you having a case if you were told that all the idlers, tensioner, and water pump were going to be replaced when your engine was reassembled during the head gasket replacement. Subaru states that the belt is due at 105k, but they don't explicitly state that the idlers, tensioner, and water pump need replacement. I have even seen local Subaru dealerships advertise $300 dollar timing belt replacement jobs, but that only includes the belt. If I were you, I would also look into a used engine. It may be a more affordable repair to just replace the long block with a known good, used unit. However, I always recommend that the head gaskets be replaced first, with Subaru EJ255/257 head gaskets or Six Star stopper head gaskets and a new timing belt kit installed. 

 

The one thing that irks me the most is, you paid over $3000 dollars for a head gasket job and you didn't get all new timing belt components? I am currently doing a head gasket job on a Baja, which includes a complete timing belt kit and a new Exedy clutch kit and the customer is being charged $1950. 

[suebee60]

Wow, afterbang. I wish I had gone to you with my original oil leak issue. I never felt like the shop was able to adequately address the cause of the leak even after changing a number of seals, head gasket etc.

I will say though that I have allways changed my oil regularly and always use fully synthetic oil. (Please tell me the synthetic oil is not a mistake) I really have been trying to take care of the car.

I should also mention that included in that price they also changed the water pump. They did quite a bit of work and I guess I believed they were changing everything that needed changing, I just took it on faith that they weren't leaving anything routine undone, as I mentioned, I'm not a mechanic and I did not know there were 3 pulleys to change.

I thought by taking it to a Subaru dealership that I was doing the right thing in order to be certain that the job was done correctly, even if it meant I had to pay more for it. Of course I was a little shocked when at some point into the job they "confessed" that as a new dealer they did not yet have any Subaru Certified Technicians, but assured me that their technicians were capable of doing the job correctly. UGGG. That was another thing, it never occured to me to ask at the Subaru dealership if they had certified Subaru Technicians before taking my car to them. Live and learn I guess.

[shortlid]

I had the timing belt done for $600 at a local shop, mechanic used the full Gates kit with the water pump.  I had him keep all the parts  so I could see condition,he replaced all 4 idlers, the hydro. tensioner, and water pump and thermostat.  Good to see at 110k on a '03 Legacy GT the orginal belts were in great shape, but always want to be on the safe side.  Gates kit has a limited lifetime warranty also, something to look into.

[Gloyale]

Definately take this to the BBB..And to SOA (Subaru of America)

 

Their price was OUTRAGEOUS to start with.  Totally OUTRAGEOUS......and they did a substandard job.  I have never had a customer bill so high......ussually if I replace EVERYTHING on a 2.5 (main seals, cam seals, seperator plate seals, oil pump o-ring and seal, HG's, Waterpump, T-belt w/new idlers, Surface heads + valve stem seals and reseal oil pan, spark plugs, Oil + filter) the job runs just under 2K.

 

FWIW......the engine should cost no more than about $1500~2000 TOPS to put a few new valves in the heads and redo the HG's.  No need to resurface, or replace Waterpump......just get a new belt/idlers and new valves in the heads.  Good time to check the rear seperator plate seal if it ahsn't been done.  Doesn't sound like the dealer did it.

[suebee60]

Thanks for all of your input. I had really tried to put the bad experience at this dealership behind me, unfortunately this new issue has made that impossible. The more I read and think the angrier I become. I guess I really feel like either the service technicians who worked on my car just didn't know what they were doing, or the service supervisor was just so fed up with my complaints about the oil loss not being fixed that they just didn't care about doing the job right. Realistically probably the first, but either way I feel kind of ripped off.

I don't necessarily expect anything to come of it, but I do think I am going to contact Subaru of America through there CDS department. Even if they can't do anything to help me, I think they should know the kind of service I recieved at one of their dealerships, I just can't see how anyone could defend this service. My daughter recently paid 1,000K for a timing belt replacement on her Outback and they changed EVERYTHING. She was also told that if she would not authorize them to change the pulleys that they would not do the service as the pulleys would not outlive the new belt. I've gone from sick to livid, though when I have to take money out of my retirement account to pay for my new engine, I'll no doubt go back to sick again.

I apprecieat all of the advice on what to do/ask for to be sure everything that needs to be checked or worked on this time around it done. Please let me know if anyone knows of something else I should ask about in terms of the repair. One other thing, my gut tells me that Baja's are holding their value and it is worth fixing. Am I wrong? Is this car worth putting 4-4.5k into? It's sitting right now at 190k miles.

[1 Lucky Texan]

when I did my WRX's belt, it was early by miles (less than 60K), but close to the 105 MONTHs in the schedule. The belt looked great, the toothed idler was rough and  slightly wobbly. One other idler was slightly rough. I left the waterpump, but will probably accelerate the next TB service and of course change the WP then.

 

to my mind, inexcusable to not change every idler and probably the tensioner.

Edited February 2, 2015 by 1 Lucky Texan

[AdventureSubaru]

Bajas are doing great on value. And if it's a car you want to take into retirement, then well worth sticking with it.

 

if you do some hunting and a bit of research, you can find a good longblock or used motor for these cars without busting the bank. I think 2000-2004 are drop in or extremely close (I think 00 and 01 needed the pulleys from the newer car swapped over.

 

I have bought/sold and witnessed a number of good motors of this generation sell from $300-$800 and you can get them all day from auto dismantlers for $1200-$1500. As has been mentioned, if the original head gaskets have already been replaced it's a plus. before install you could do timing stuff/water pump (Gates kit is around $150.) and seals if needed.

 

Craigslist is great for bargains. car-part.com is great for sourcing local yards. the more shopping you do, the more you can save. I do the work myself, but I have done several engine or transmission transplants with tune ups/timing for under $500 all in.

 

And agreed with the consensus here. Anyone who is qualified to take money from you for a timing belt change should know to change the idlers/pulleys at the same time. They are not expensive parts. Bout $80-$90 for the set. Sounds like they cut corners and gambled with your motor and your money. I would at the very least get a written report of the failure by the existing mechanic and bring it to the offending one and see what they can do. Threaten to contact BBB, and write reviews on Yelp, Google etc.

 

Sad news, but if it's done right this time, you wont have to worry about oil leaks, timing or anything for a long time. Get a solid motor in there and drive.

[AdventureSubaru]

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ptd/4772175035.html

 

The motor in that forester for example would be a match. May get you started/thinking

[suebee60]

So, I wanted to provide an update. First, I did contact Subaru of America and while "sympathetic" they essentially let me know they would register my complaint but that was all they could do. The shop, naturally, refused to take any responsibility for the problem. The shop manager actually told me they were trying to "save me money" by not replaceing the pulleys. Gee, I guess I think that should have been my decision.

Now for the real update. I think I mentioned they also resurfaced my heads and replaced my head gaskets when they did this job. Well, when they pulled the motor and started repairs they asked me to come in and bring a camera. Apparently when the dealer resurfaced the head, instead of sanding/grinding it down to a fine smooth finish, they left it scratched and uneven. The machine shop guy said he guessed they used a snap on grinding tool so they could get to it without having to actually pull the engine out. He said he always does it by hand because he feels it's too easy to take off too much metal too quickely with those tools, plus you have to pull the engine to get to it by hand. I don't know, that is just a guess but what isn't a guess is how beat up my cylinder head looks. He said he could not guarantee at this point that he could smooth the head out well enough for the gasket to seal correctly. He thinks he can try filling in the scratches with jb weld then smoothing it down so that the weld is only filling in the scratches and buffing it out to a smooth finish, but no guarantees.

I'm really at a loss. I just can't believe this Licensed Dealership screwed up my car sooooo bad. I'm just sick.

[1997reduxe]

you should be.

email me at opened (dot) to (at) gmail.

i live in houston theres a guy here actually hes in new caney so its not that far from you

where he regularly puts in jasper engines they cost oh about 1000 or less and he puts them in for about 350.

let me know if youre interested.

'97

[1997reduxe]

and god do i wish we could have talked to you before the first job. there would

have of course been a gigantic discussion about gates vs contitech and impregnated

belts, where exactly to buy seals and which kits to use, etc,

but man would you have saved a lot of money and obvious grief.

just fyi. they also built a new sube dealership here in clear lake so this will be

something to look out for i suppose new dealerships with new techs.

interview your mechanic before the job, i soppose.

Edited February 17, 2015 by 1997reduxe

[suebee60]

Thanks 1997reduxe. I appreicate the information. The trouble is I have already taken it to a shop where they have removed the engine. To have someone else fix it now would mean having it towed yet a 3rd time, at pretty great expense and still having to pay for the work already done. I did suggest looking for a rebuilt or used engine in good condition rather than trying to do anything with the current one. Would this be a good idea in your opinion? I just feel like this engine has been trashed and I would be better off with another one, even a fairly high mileage used one. Do you agree?

I should also clarify, I was living in the Panhandle when this work was done. It was not a central Texas Subaru Dealer. It is a drive, but my daughter gets good service at Subaru of Round Rock and I am acutally pretty impressed with this independent shop that my car is currently at. At the very least they seem both knowledgable and honest.

I guess I could have come on and asked some questions prior to getting the original work done, I wish I had now.  I just stupidly assumed if I was taking it to a dealership they would know what they were doing. Live and learn I guess.

[suebee60]

Several people have mentioned the idea of a used rebuilt engine. I am sure that the engine I would need would not necessarily need to be from a Baja. Someone sent a link to a Forrester in Dallas. Is there a way for me to know which engines would be a match? Probably a silly question, but I am clueless when it comes to something like this. My mechanic has had no luck locating one and I would like to start looking myself.

Thanks all.

[Fairtax4me]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hopefully you can get something out of them via BBB complaint or small claims.

 

I agree that a used engine would be the way to go here.

Car-part.com is a good locating service that uses thousands of salvage yards. Enter year make model and scroll down the long parts list to "Engine" you can sort by zip, and narrow or widen results by distance, then click Search.

Selecct transmission type on the next screen (AT auto trans or MT manual), and it should bring up some results. If none, go back to the main page and select a wider distance.

 

Any listing that says "Core" is a damaged engine and should be avoided.

[idosubaru]

Engine replace or not:

I would think the cause of the oil loss would determine if you get another engine or not.  If it's repairable - keep your current engine.  If it's unknown or part of the short block/too expensive, get another engine.

 

If it's valve stem seals - then simply replace the valve stem seals while the head is off.  They have to be replaced if valves are bent/being replaced.

 

If the block is loosing oil  through the piston rings - then yes you'd want another engine probably unless you can find a place that will reasonably re-ring or otherwise fix your oil loss issue.  $1,000 to freshen the block may be better than $1,000 for an unknown engine?
 

If you don't know the cause of the oil loss - then you might want to consider a used engine.  Fairtax mentioned it but:

www.car-part.com

 

 

Head gasket repair:

It's a good idea to do this even if you get another motor.  Although - if it's not currently leaking externally they are unlikely to leak.  The OEM factory installed headgaskets leak externally almost every time.

 

I would resurface the heads and block and no way I'd put JB weld up against a headgasket.  That sounds like a terrible idea on an engine known to blow headgaskets, but I can't say I've ever tried.  I have milled EJ heads below spec before without issue - actually your exact heads even.

 

Use an Subaru OEM EJ25 Turbo head gasket.  Or a Six Star if you don't want to give subaru any more money!   Those are superior MLS headgaskets to the original one installed on your vehicle.

 

 

Dealer/mechanic woes:

Dealers and mechanics routinely replace the belt only.  Not saying I recommend that or that's what I do, but it is common and not a required maintenance in the owners manual.  To that extent I don't think they are culpable - just poor places to get timing belt jobs done.  Dealers are the worst place to get a timing belt because they routinely do fewer parts than a well informed independent - and their parts are very costly if you do have them done or ask them to do them.  They're timing kits are like $400+ dollars, the Gates kits are $120 - so a $300 premium for parts only.

Edited February 19, 2015 by grossgary

[suebee60]

Thanks guys,

I think I am going to look for a used engine. I'll start with car-parts.com. I don't think at this point I can do much worse. I still can't believe however, that Subaru doesn't require their dealerships to have a certified Subaru mechanic on staff. That's rediculous. I also realize that the failure to replace the idler pulleys while probably stupid is within the realm of acceptability, but destroying the surface of my cylinder heads is NOT.

Unfortunately there are no small claims courts in Tx. Any action requires an attorney and I just am not sure it would be worth it considering I could lose. Then I could add legal bills to the injury. Blah.

[upnorthguy]

Unfortunately there are no small claims courts in Tx. Any action requires an attorney and I just am not sure it would be worth it considering I could lose. Then I could add legal bills to the injury. Blah.

 

I can't believe this is true.  What county are you in?  You should be able to find some info on your county court web site.

I found some info for a few counties in central Texas that indicate there is small claims and the limit is $5,000.  You can always represent yourself in small claims (that is the point of that type of court).  That being said, it definitely would involve some time and a few bucks (filing fee for complaint), and may not result in resolution in your favor, but it may be worth pursuing for leverage.  Keep in mind that the dealer may, and likely would, try and remove the claim from small claims and bump it up to the next higher level of court if possible (as the dealer would likely want to hire an attorney).

Negative PR through social media can also be effective these days (assuming you've exhausted private discussions before going public).

[ccrinc]

In addition to what everyone else has said, I'd like to add:

1) Change out your PCV valve. It's about a $12 part...use Subaru Genuine only!  If you aren't seeing any leaks or blue smoke, it is highly likely that is the culprit in your oil loss/use.

 

2) Whether you go for a used or rebuilt engine, there are 6 or 7 things that must be matched up for an engine to work in your car.  The left cam gear, crank gear, EGR (or lack thereof), PCV connector type, oil pump (Manual vs. automatic), is it PZEV or AVCS?  Some of these can be switched over from your current engine, others are part of the block or internals and cannot.

 

JB Weld on the head surface is a horrible idea, IMO.  And like Gary said, have them use turbo head gaskets (11044AA642 part #).  Yes, they should be absolutely flat and smooth: the newer engines are not tolerant of anomalies.

 

Any dealer in this area (Denver) would never do a timing belt without changing those items unless they got it in writing from the customer refusing those parts.  Whomever you took it to is incompetent, at best.

 

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

 

Emily