93 Legacy L FWD to AWD & H6 swap

[Sir Junk]

Just like the title says, my aspirations for my soob. Newbie here to this world so has anyone done it? Is there enough clearance with the undercarriage? Which parts should I go for? Which one will I need? Looking to boost a 3.0 R H6 and trying to figure out whether the EZ engine will mount to an EJ tranny. Case in point, EZ30 to EJ25 tranny? Any and all help will be appreciated! If you have pics of the parts, your build or anything at all, please let me know! Thank you all!

[idosubaru]

EZ bolts right up to the EJ transmission and into the EJ engine crossmember.

yes it'll fit. do the plugs and VCG's before you install it due to the really tight fit between the frame rails.  heck that applies even when doing an EZ in an EZ vehicle.

 

front clearance is tight - pushes tight against the radiator.  people have moved the fans for additional clearance, but i'm unsure i that applies to those early 90-94 legacies.

[Sir Junk]

So for instance, an H6 w/ an EJ257 transmission? Also, the car currently is Front wheel drive. What else would I need to acquire to do the swap properly? Do the FWD have no mounting or clearance issues? Thank you btw for the help!

[ccrinc]

You do realize that you will also need the ECU, all the wiring, sensors, air setup, different exhaust, etc? Right?  There's nothing about this that is plug and play.  Not. One. D*#n. Thing.  Even putting one into a 2000+ car that's more designed to handle it is more of a challenge than most people would ever want to face.  Have you ever looked under the hood of a Subaru with an EZ30 in it?

 

What do you mean by "boost"? Turbocharge it?  Um, no.  No way you can gerry rig a turbo to that engine.  There is no way to mate it nor is there any room for it.

 

Oh, and have fun doing the spark plugs on it later.  Reaching those 2 rear ones is a plumbing job.  You know: the kind where you get half way into it and wish you had called a pro? (True of any Subaru 6 cyl.)

 

Emily

[Sir Junk]

Thanks Emily, but nothing is impossible.

 

You can boost (yes that means applying a turbocharging unit with the appropriate Hotside, O2 and etc.) I do not care what individuals rebuttals with; You think it an Turbo H6 cannot happen, I may have better resources and access to better mechanics than what you give me credit for. You claim you cannot apply an aspiration setup, then explain upgraded/forged rods, pistons, crank. Having any or all of these forged is a big plus, especially in a turbo.....this is common knowledge.

 

I wasn't looking for a smear, but I hope you catch the drift that I am not a punk kid with some wild, unattainable aspirations and dreams. Stop trying to crush them with unverifiable statements like 'you cannot turbo an H6.' Yes technically I can. It may cost a crap ton of money, it may fall apart a lot, but dreams are meant to be made in reality. Hell, you can turbo anything with the proper placement, applications and proper machine work ????

 

Not here to take a bashing because I'm an ex-Evo guy, just looking for help. Still have been looking at AWD swaps too!

 

And Emily, when I'm done, we will put yours and mine on the track, dirt, water, air or whatever and see which is better. ????????????????????

[ccrinc]

Thanks Emily, but nothing is impossible.

 

You can boost (yes that means applying a turbocharging unit with the appropriate Hotside, O2 and etc.) I do not care what individuals rebuttals with; You think it an Turbo H6 cannot happen, I may have better resources and access to better mechanics than what you give me credit for. You claim you cannot apply an aspiration setup, then explain upgraded/forged rods, pistons, crank. Having any or all of these forged is a big plus, especially in a turbo.....this is common knowledge.

 

I wasn't looking for a smear, but I hope you catch the drift that I am not a punk kid with some wild, unattainable aspirations and dreams. Stop trying to crush them with unverifiable statements like 'you cannot turbo an H6.' Yes technically I can. It may cost a crap ton of money, it may fall apart a lot, but dreams are meant to be made in reality. Hell, you can turbo anything with the proper placement, applications and proper machine work

 

Not here to take a bashing because I'm an ex-Evo guy, just looking for help. Still have been looking at AWD swaps too!

 

And Emily, when I'm done, we will put yours and mine on the track, dirt, water, air or whatever and see which is better.

 

When you've been in the business of remanufacturing Subaru engines for over 21 years, come back and talk to me about how I don't know what I'm saying. 

 

With enough time, money and PITA, nearly anything is "possible".  True enough statement.  As the old saying goes, "How fast do you want to go? How much do you want to spend?"  Crap ton of money is right! (Close to one of my favorite sayings, actually.)

 

The items you mention (upgraded rods, pistons, crank) are all internal, not external and therefore, easier to do and have nothing to do with aspiration.  HOWEVER, one must still stick with what fits the engine, or make something that fits.   At this time, there are very few aftermarket upgrades for that engine and certainly no cranks for a 6 cyl. turbo.   Much would need to be fabricated and made to fit.  Here's a link to someone who actually has turbo'd the EZ30.  (Note that he works for a tuner.)

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1215617

 

Frankly, if you want to do this kind of thing, NASIOC is where you'll find more and better info.  Most people here are more concerned with how to keep their current cars running.  (No, I'm not trying to kick you out: just that it's a better place to look.)

 

Emily

[1 Lucky Texan]

do what you want of course, but a better project would be a WRX or STI swap into that car. a LOT more readily available parts and software options.

 

you might also enjoy searching for cardoc's supercharged H6 over at subaruoutback.org

Edited January 25, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan

[AdventureSubaru]

"access to better mechanics" You plan on PAYING someone to do this for you? Or just getting the know how? As mentioned, anything is possible, but you've picked about the most expensive and time consuming job possible. The cheapest part of all this is the car itself as a FWD legacy. Paying a shop to do the swaps necessary just to make is AWD would cost more than 2 or 3 first generation legacies. Not to mention the legwork and cost of assembling all the parts necessary. Just for fun though, let's go through a ballpark rundown.

 

FWD to AWD - You'll need to swap the transmission and crossmembers, front axles, swap to an AWD exhaust and gas tank. Purchase and swap rear diff hanger, driveshaft, differential, rear axles and rear spindles and probably rear suspension as well. Possibly different TCU and sensors. This is usually only an option if you have a whole parts car and lots of spare time. Conventional wisdom says if you want AWD, sell the FWD car and buy an AWD car. There's no way to offset the time and $$$ cost of the swap.

 

EZ30 - been done. As mentioned it will drop in there. I bought one for $1200 for my wife's 06 LLbean last year. The earlier ones with higher miles can be found for about $800-$900. The install is just a tighter and heavier version of an EJ install. Same overall process. The EJ trans can handle it if driven gently but aggressive driving has seen the EZ30 equipped cars trash the transmission inside of 100k

 

turbo - #1. this is a huge undertaking as there is already no room to work with. You may look up the custom intake manifolds and blower covers made to supercharge the XT6 and I think a SVX. I see no feasable way to fit a turbo in there. A superharger and blower cover is the only way I've seen forced induction on an H6. Expect to pay big bucks for it plus the custom work of fabbing the intake manifold to house it. This would also limit you to EZ30 motors with the aluminum intake manifold.

 

#2. forced induction on any subaru motor not set up for it is a bad idea because it leaves you with two poor options. Run it enough for noticeable power gains and very quickly destroy your motor. Or run it gently resulting in very little power gains and defeat the purpose of forced induction to begin with.

 

Doing this with junkyard parts and doing all wrenching yourself, just to slap it together to the point of making it run and move - off the top of my head you're looking at easily $8000 just in the parts needed to start tackling this. If you're paying someone else to do the work to your car, expect that number to triple.

 

I'm rarely one to jump to conclusions, but from what i'm hearing so far... unless you have very deep pockets and a love for first generation legacies (or a very sentimental value on this particular car) or you're a subie gearhead that hasn't let on yet and you actually are connected to some folks who have done some crazy custom work just for the sake of novelty.

 

Unless I missed that, you're what we would call a "dreamer" - maybe it's fast & furious movies that make you think it's a good idea to sink thousands into a beater level car. Maybe you wanna drag race somewhere and this is what you've got for now. I dunno, but without some really slick ideas and a big pile of spare time and money, this car would be a huge waste of time and money.

 

If you like the 93 Subaru, fix it up and make it nice. Takes a lot to ever make an EJ22 powered subaru fast. Just make it a nice stock clean car. If you wanna go fast, buy a foxbody mustang with a 5.0 and take it to the track (Or as many kids do, terrorize the neighborhood until the law catches up)

 

Or I stand to be corrected. Tell us why you or the car merit doing all the work to make it a "boosted" EZ30 AWD 1993 hellhorse. If someone ever did all that to a 93, I'd call them crazy but still love to see the car.

Edited January 25, 2016 by AdventureSubaru

[AdventureSubaru]

All this to say - you're in the realm of possibility, but you probably need to be way better than us to start moving forward with this project. You're combining two swaps (AWD and EZ30) that have been done but either one by itself is not cost effective and more $$$ and time than they're worth by conventional wisdom. A 3rd (turbo) modification that to my knowledge hasn't been done, will require a crazy amount of modification and expense, and even if feasible, defeats the purpose by killing the motor it's attached to.

[Bushwick]

Youtubers MCM did their "Gramps" build, which started as a 95'? Legacy/Brighton Wagon and they retrofitted an EZ36 and turbo'd that. Then they swapped the running gear, engine, turbo, etc. into a newer styled body. They got it into the 11's and it appears to be a daily driver. I suggest googling "Gramps" and watch their earlier videos with the original body as that covers most of what you'd need to mod yours, save for differences between your earlier model. While theirs was already AWD, they still swapped in a better trans and rear. 

 

If you forgo a turbo and use the OEM engine management and looms from the donor, your life will be easier. If at a later time you want to turbo it, at least it'll already be running and will be somewhat less overwhelming.

[Numbchux]

Geez, there's a lot of negativity in here!!

 

 

Let me try to bridge the gap a little. First off, "Sir Junk". You are clearly very new to this, with a ton of research ahead of you, and no indication of even enough background knowledge to justify choosing that engine. Most of us have seen dozens of people on here, and elsewhere, over the years come on here and start posts like this. Most of them never get started, a few started, and never finished. I'm not a betting person, but I would bet cash that this car never happens.

 

 

 

 

With that said, I think some of the people here are overstating the difficulty. The back of an EZ engine is in the exact same place as an EJ. The turbo fits perfectly behind the RH head. Yes, you have to build custom headers, up-pipe, down-pipe, etc. But not really anything you wouldn't be doing with any other big-turbo (rotated) build.

 

I worked on an EG33 swap car that the owner had high hopes for (then he had 5 kids.....and sold the car un-finished....and I helped get it going later with the stock engine). He actually mocked up putting a TD04 behind each headlight, using "morette" style projector headlight housings, and using one of the headlight openings as an intake for each turbo. Would have had to cut up the inner fender, and move the battery to the trunk and some clever intercooler plumbing (probably AWICs), but really not too difficult.

 

The '05+ EZ30s (commonly, and incorrectly, called EZ30R) were all immobilizer cars. This is probably the biggest enemy to swappers. It makes it virtually impossible (I only say virtually to give the benefit of the doubt. I've never seen it done) to run that ECU in any other chassis. There's an old thread on NASIOC where someone tried, and tried, and tried to get one of those EZ30s to run in an older impreza.....never happened. So you're definitely stuck with standalone (which you already are, if you're thinking about boost).

 

As Bushwick said, Mighty Car Mods did one with a turbo EZ36. They detailed it over about 20 30-min videos. It almost makes it look easy, but watch closely at the amount of specialists that get involved. Taking over AMAuto (who is clearly prepared for this kind of project) for quite some time to fabricate everything. Then having the guys from Haltech come in and do all the wiring, and do road and dyno tunes. 

 

 

All EJ, EZ, EG, FA, and FB engines use essentially the same bellhousing. In about 1999, they added 4 more bolts to the connection, but the 4 bolts on the older style line up to the newer style, they are interchangeable (with the one challenge of adding a starter bolt when putting an 8-bolt transmission on a 4-bolt engine). Although a turbo 6-cyl will munch any stock 5-speed. Get a 6-speed, and matching r180.

[Numbchux]

There's also options for turbo mounting like this:

http://www.rs25.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=46782&d=1309281462

(apparently I can't embed that...)

 

There's a guy here in MN that's fabbed up several cars like this. It gets some of the heat out of the engine bay, frees up space to stuff a much larger turbo than what fits in stock location, and allows for much shorter piping, both on the exhaust and intercooler side. Pretty cool stuff. Those were all on EJ cars, but obviously wouldn't be any different for an EZ, just need a different exhaust flange, and 2 more primary pipes.

[Sir Junk]

I genuinely appreciate all the input. To put everything into a nutshell, I want to do something that isn't common; I've built 4 FQs (Evos) and countless turbo eclipses and talons. If my arrogance offends you, it's not because I'm being an arse, it's because I am new and I wanted to know what to do to make it possible, not be told I'm an idiot, that it can't be done, etc. anything can be done with the right amount of passion and determination. Yes I have a rust bucket, but I have a crazy dream for a sleeper. So let me be clear to everyone: stop saying anything about money or it being not plausible. This build is meant to be unique, time consuming, costly and physical, but that does not stop my efforts in the pursuit of my ambition. I want you to see my wagon in a year or two and be like,'hey I saw the beginning of the build!,' or 'I was able to be apart of this guys build because I helped him with what knowledge that I have.' Very simple folks, help or laugh at me lol.

 

Now that's out of the way, I really haven't been able to read too much into the EZ36 builds.

 

If the EZ build doesn't work out, she will have a custom fitted late model LS.

 

Hopefully you see how FUN this build is to be, so take your doubt and hate elsewhere!

 

Anymore I put would help! I'll be constantly updating when I can!

 

Thank you everyone!!!

[AdventureSubaru]

If you're into it and realistic about it, then go for it. We just don't want to see another dreamer that doesn't have the money or knowhow to do any of whats being suggested. We get plenty of that type.

 

17 year old kid watches the latest fast a furious movie and looks up the biggest motor that came in a legacy platform and wants to install it and "boost" it and "oh by the way, my car is FWD so lets make it AWD. All with just enough knowledge to do oil changes and brake pads and on a pizza delivery drivers budget.

 

That's not you. But your first post made it look that way.

 

If you've got the ambition, you've got the money and you've got the know how, then go for it. Sleeper cars are pretty neat in their own right. (The legal type. Those breaking laws get what's coming to them eventually or end up in wrecks that kill themselves and innocent folks going about their business.)

 

But you've got the rundown. it's a huge job, but every sleeper and crazy custom I've seen completed has been. Seen 600hp rear engine Ford Pinto, twin turboed road runner, Miata Scorpions and the like.

 

Unless you're really stuck on your particular car though, you'll get one huge hurdle over with by selling the FWD car and buying one of similar cost/rust that's AWD. Or even wait until you've got your motor lined up and buy one with a bad motor since you're swapping anyway. I see 90s cars with bad motors in that $300-$1000 range all the time. You may actually make a bit of $$$ of that initial swap and have only the EZ swap and turboing process to worry about. Especially if your car has rust present, you'll double your labor time by chasing after broken captive nuts, broken heads and stripped threads.

Edited January 28, 2016 by AdventureSubaru

[Bushwick]

If dealing with an immobilizer car and only running the engine stock, you should be able to swap everything over and have it work just as it would in the car it came with.

 

At Sir Junk, there are more people that have done LS based builds into the WRX than Legacy, and not many of them seem to post here, so if you go a GM V8 route, consider a checking a forum with more diehard WRX owners.

 

If you were willing to do a NA V8 build with a carb (like a small block Ford~450hp with aluminum heads, intake, smaller carb, etc.), that'd be pretty different and much easier to pull off.

 

Regardless, if you ever get into it, be sure to run a parallel thread in this forum as we don't seem to get many 6 or 8 cylinder build threads. 

[ccrinc]

Again, I suggest this resource:   http://forums.nasioc...d.php?t=1215617

[Fairtax4me]

You can turbo anyhing, but you'll only get about 5-7 psi before the guts fly out of the 3.0.

 

Have a piston company make some low compression pistons and forged rods, chuck 15-20 psi into it and see what you can get from it!

 

Like Emily said, you'll find better info on the more performance oriented forums. NASIOC, RS25, IWSTI, etc.

[Numbchux]

You can turbo anyhing, but you'll only get about 5-7 psi before the guts fly out of the 3.0.

 

Debatable. And even still, 7psi with 3L of displacement, high compression, and a good tune, is a heap of power!

[1 Lucky Texan]

it's been a long time since I read; http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/110-gen-2-2000-2004/47896-sleeper-vdc.html

 

but i THINK cardoc was running about 9lbs of boost.

 

 

here's one of the graphs he got from his VDC 3.0 Outback;

 

 

 

but, cardoc went 'dark' and there's really no way to know what the longevity of his engine is.

Edited January 28, 2016 by 1 Lucky Texan