loyalematt Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Hey all. Just a quick question. Have a 90 loyale 1.8 5spd 4wd. I noticed the old girl running a bit hotter than normal headed to work the other day, although she never got in the red. Slowly twisted the radiator cap and everything was still under pressure so don't think it has a leak. However, when I pulled the cap on the reservoir there was a layer of black gunk floating on the top. Me being me, I stuck my finger in it to see if it was all the way through and was much greener below, but the residue on my finger smelt and felt like burnt motor oil. So I checked the level later after it cooled off and the radiator looked low so added some, but when I pulled the reservoir cap again it was almost to the top. I did check the engine oil and fortunately no milky residue on the stick or under the fill cap so I don't think there is any antifreeze making it into the oil. I have noticed that there is quite a bit of white smoke especially after a cold start. So here lies the question. I've seen alot of folks say that if it actually is oil in the coolant, its the first sign of the head gaskets giving up. Explained as oil pressure is higher than coolant pressure so it forces oil into the coolant but doesn't allow coolant into the oil yet. I did take the reservoir out, drain it and refill to see if it happens again. So, is a head gasket(s) about to blow completely, and if so, should I try to avoid driving it until I get the new ones in? They are calling for some wintery weather and this is my 4wd tank. But I don't want to ruin the engine if its bad enough that it can't wait a week or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Truck Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 (edited) you seem to be on track with your assessment sir. oil in the water is usually head gasket from my experience. the white smoke on startup just might be your indicator of water getting in the oil too, or...... It is possible your water level being low in the overflow is tied to the white smoke. if the coolant is getting into the cylinder then u could see white smoke when cold but when warmed up not noticeable YET. try taking the spark plugs out and see if one of them is wet with anti freeze. As far as antifreeze in the oil, yes that is a no go for me as it will take your bearings out if it persists. you could take an oil sample and send it in with an email response and only drive minimally until you are sure there is no anti-freeze in the oil, As you know the EA 82 is prone to head gasket issues. for me my heads were warped so i am just finishing a rebuild of my heads, had them shaved and heads pressure checked and new seals etc. all new timing belts and pulleys etc. if u go that far do a wet and dry compression test to see if full rebuild is needed. etc. good luck Edited February 2, 2020 by Mack Truck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 It only takes a few drops of oil to leave a residue in the reservoir, so don't panic yet. I would remove and clean out the reservoir, and keep an eye on it. Check it when the system is cold so the level is at it's lowest. The time to worry is when you have coolant in the oil, temperature creeping, or running issues. Even coolant consumption on these engines is usually just intake manifold gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 The over normal temp is a sign of air in the cooling system. Every time that happens, it worsens the damage to the headgaskets. It usually slowly progresses. You might get another week, or a few months. If you check the water level before every drive. The radiator must be 100% full, and the bottle at the full mark. You need to evaluate the rare of loss. As it increases, the time you can get away with running it grows shorter. Also, this only applies to relatively short runs, 30 minured or less. Longer gives more.time to push more coolant out, causing more over normal temp, faster degredation of the headgaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted January 29, 2020 Author Share Posted January 29, 2020 That's what I was figuring. The rate of loss doesn't seem to be very quick at this point but I will start checking it every time I have to drive it. If the weather will cooperate I may only have to drive it a few short trips over the next couple of weeks. I have a head gasket set on its way, its just a matter of temps being warm enough, weather not calling for that white stuff, and having time to do it all. Always has to happen in winter. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 While you are getting gaskets, you want OEM intake gaskets, and the OEM re enforced o rings for the cam towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted January 29, 2020 Author Share Posted January 29, 2020 I just got the kit from APEX, but had already gotten some Victor Reinz seals and o-rings for the cam towers. Are you still able to get OEM for those? Do you happen to have the part #'s handy for them? I've invested alot of $ and wrench time into her. They are absolute tanks and extremely dependable. The age and corrosion are starting to catch up to her, and parts are getting harder to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I don't know that brand / kit. The OEM intake gaskets are some kind of very firm slippery stuff. Do not use or trust cardboard like gaskets there, I have had them fail and damage headgaskets more than once. It was a few years ago, I bought several sets of intake and orings from a dealer. It's worth a try for the reliability. The metal reinforced orings, I'll go searching industrial parts suppliers before I use plain orings, if the dealers don't have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 It seems pretty decent. The head gaskets are graphite coated, along with valve seals, and the assorted metallic gaskets, cardboard/paper type gaskets, and O-rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) Just throwing this out there, but looking at the head gasket they sent, it almost looks to me like the hole for the oil galley you guys mentioned where that oem type o-ring goes, the head gasket itself is either made of copper there or it has a special coating for that galley alone. It appears orange/copper colored (bottom left in the pic). Am I correct about that, or looking at the diagram wrong? Perhaps they made it that way to relieve this issue with the rubber o-rings? It is #11 in the OEM diagram. And I believe the intake gaskets in this kit are stamped metal with a coating from what I can tell. Made of the same material as the exhaust gaskets on the head. Edited January 30, 2020 by loyalematt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) The re enforced o rings go in the cam tower to head joint. The head gaskets have a copper seal. This if for the oil channel to the cam towers. Edited January 30, 2020 by DaveT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Where exactly is the cam tower to head joint? Looking at the diagram, it is showing the part # given, which is #11 in the diagram, on the block side of the head where that copper portion of the head gasket would be positioned. Are you saying that the OEM type reinforced O-rings should still be used at that location? I've done about everything else on these motors except for head gaskets, so pardon my lack of firsthand knowledge on the specifics for it. I do want to make sure it is right the first time to avoid future problems. I appreciate all the input. I was always told when you stop learning something new, it's time to stop doing the job. This forum has a wealth of knowledge on these vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 I see what you are saying now. The o-ring you reference is on the camshaft housing assembly, which attaches to the other side of the head. The picture in the service manual its easier to see than in the diagram. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 you got it. The order of assembly is BLOCK - HEAD - CAM CARRIER. Headgasket goes between block and head. Sealant and metal reinforced oring goes between cam carrier and head. #10 In your previous attaches diagram is the carrier. And # 11 is either the metal reinforced oring itself or a good illustration for where it goes. That diagram is already showing the head assembled to the block and no parts or numbers or labels so you don’t see both mating surfaces. It seems like your current progress is spot on, but decades old overflow tanks are usually grimy and nasty even on perfectly running engines. A one time observation isn’t a confirmation unless the tank was previously known to be very clean top to bottom. It seems you have enough symptoms, and know what you’re doing, but thought I’d mention it in case there was any uncertainty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 Yes when I initially looked at the diagram I thought it was the heads, but when I magnified the image realized it was the cam and housing assembly instead so looking at the picture in the service manual, I had a lightbulb moment. Haha. I did order the oem o-rings and got a couple extras given the increasing scarcity of parts. Now it's just a matter of waiting on them to get here. I did clean out the reservoir and refilled with fresh coolant to attempt to verify the condition. You are correct that these tend to collect alot of junk in the tank no matter what. My concern came from the fact that even though it has floating junk, when I poured the contents into a clear bottle it left a film on the bottle at the top, and it smells like burnt motor oil instead of the usual sweet antifreeze scent along with being somewhat murky instead of light green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 What type of sealant would you guys recommend for the cam carrier assembly? Just red RTV? I know the graphite HGs don't require any type of extra sealant on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 It's anaerobic sealant, not rtv that you want. There are a couple of favored brands I've seen mentioned, I just don't recall at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 The Right Stuff is commonly recommended for that application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 I tried to find permatex anaerobic sealant at the local autozone and they didn't have it. They had about 50 different types of RTV but not one anaerobic sealer besides threadlock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Those box stores are hit and miss on anaerobic sealant. Its often on a bottom shelf, less visible, and only a bottle or two.....or like you said, none at all. I took one home and it was crusty and packaging deteriorated, seemed obvious it had sat there a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88SubGL Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Try Amazon. That’s where I bought mine. It came fast. Or check online at Advance Auto, if they don’t have it in stock they can usually get it pretty quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 I did manage to pick up a tube at the local advance. It was the only one they had. Believe I timed it about right too. The oil was still clean when I drained it but noticed that removing everything to pull it out, the crankcase tube to the valve cover on the driver side had a nice creamy oil/water residue on the inside, so I think it has been burning off any water so far but is on the verge of catastrophic HG failure. The engine is sitting in the garage now awaiting its cleaning, inspection, and new gaskets. I will update once I am able to tear it apart, put it back together and get it put back in. O-rings are suppose to be here tomorrow. Thanks everyone for the tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyalematt Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 Managed to get through the drivers side. Wasn't expecting the massive level of surface prep but better to do it right the first time. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that some of the residual antifreeze that was still in the block managed to run into the oil pan when I started seperating the head so I plan to drain the pan after I get the other side finished and add some cheap oil initially, drain, then add cheap again with a filter change. Drive it for a few miles. Then change it again with good oil and new filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 It is inevitable. Put in new oil, runt a few trips, replace. Anything left after that will cook off. It's 50 /50 oil / coolant you don't want to run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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