zzzasy Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 I'm at a point where I'm getting ready to buy my second engine (third if you count the original) for a '98 OBW I've had for two-plus years. My second engine was a used one I had to buy on the interstate when my subie ran hot and cracked the heads (or so I was told). I'm having problems with the engine and it seems like it would be cheaper to replace then to keep spending on it every couple of months. I've noticed that everyone talks about buying a rebuilt engine ($2895 CCR) instead of rebuilding their own engine. Is there a good reason for this? Wouldn't it be cheaper for me to pull my engine and take it to a machine shop for a rebuild? zzzasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Wouldn't it be cheaper for me to pull my engine and take it to a machine shop for a rebuild? probably could. CCR has a great reputation with subaru motors and has been around along time and done nothing but subaru. price the parts or ask the local shop and see what they come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 If you find a shop that REALLY knows your engine you might save a bit of money there. However, with ccrinc you get a warranty and the assurance that you have someone who KNOWS our engines. Judging from your earlier posts there may be an internal problem that might not show up in a standard rebuild. I'd go with the ccrinc engine if it were my choice and I wanted to spend that much (you're close to looking for a replacement car in my humble opinion). Pulling and installing your own engine is quite easy if you have a friend and engine hoist. Good luck with it. I'm at a point where I'm getting ready to buy my second engine (third if you count the original) for a '98 OBW I've had for two-plus years. My second engine was a used one I had to buy on the interstate when my subie ran hot and cracked the heads (or so I was told). I'm having problems with the engine and it seems like it would be cheaper to replace then to keep spending on it every couple of months. I've noticed that everyone talks about buying a rebuilt engine ($2895 CCR) instead of rebuilding their own engine. Is there a good reason for this? Wouldn't it be cheaper for me to pull my engine and take it to a machine shop for a rebuild? zzzasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 i think that th real question that should be asked is why has a 98 EJ25 have to have been replaces 3 times?? how many miles are on this car? you should be able to go from 150k to 250k without a rebuild.. maybe more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzasy Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 The first engine failed because I wasn't aware that you are suppose to watch the temp gauge like a hawk. I was sure that if the car was running hot a warning light would come on. $1100 later, I know that isn't true. The engine in the car now started acting up when the cats went out on me. I replaced the cats with aftermarket. After replacing the cats, now the car will not run right. I guess I must have burned something up when I drove the car home (maybe 35 miles) with the red hot cat problem. zzzasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustyrider Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 ahhh o2 sensor.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzasy Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 both are new bosch units. Plus, wouldn't it give a sensor code if they were bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Rebuilding a motor and doing it right isn't overly cheap. Most people aren't going to have the tools & skills, so they'd just rather replace it. I rebuilt my ej22t this past summer and subaru motors are a little more complicated then your standard inline engine IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 It took 600 bucks just in parts for my motor, and I was being cheap. It is a bigger process than you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPX Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I am quite comfortable with taking out engines and transmissions although it does take a lot of time and space. I am in the middle of replacing my EJ22 with a longblock from CCR. (link to progress here->http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=924535. The logic seems easy to follow that if you go through the trouble of pulling a motor, why not teardown to the journal bearings (or in the case of a transmission, slide all the gears off the shaft)? Some people prefer to pull and rebuild their own crank, rods, valve guides, and do all of that stuff. I'm sure there is satisfaction from the cost savings and a job well done that comes with that. But I have to draw the line on rebuilding a shortblock in my own garage. Here's the thing, I do not find any joy in working on the precision components and the cost in terms of time and even $$$ just doesn't work for me. And my patience when it comes to heads....bah, halfway through I might give up and sell the whole car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dxrflyboy Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 The first engine failed because I wasn't aware that you are suppose to watch the temp gauge like a hawk. I was sure that if the car was running hot a warning light would come on. $1100 later, I know that isn't true. The engine in the car now started acting up when the cats went out on me. I replaced the cats with aftermarket. After replacing the cats, now the car will not run right. I guess I must have burned something up when I drove the car home (maybe 35 miles) with the red hot cat problem. zzzasy DOHC EJ25 engines are prone to blowing headgaskets (it will take very little browsing of this forum to find this out!). Your original engine may or may not have been salvageable from the overheat. Replacing the engine was a CYA measure on the part of the garage. Usually, resurfacing the heads and replacing the gaskets is all it takes to get you going again. Installing a used engine, while there is less labor involved, unless the head gaskets were already replaced, is just reinstalling the problem. Before considering another engine, your best bet is to find out why your car isn't running right and correct the problem. Unless a new timing belt was installed with the replacement engine, now would be a good time to change it. These are "interference" engines, ie, the pistons will hit the open valves if the belt breaks and the cams stop turning. Don't wait until it breaks! Check your compression, look for sludge in the coolant overflow, bubbling in the radiator with the engine running (indicators of a blown head gasket (BHG)), vacuum leaks, etc, etc. If your catalytic converters were getting red hot, you have unburnt fuel in the exhaust due to a rich mixture, misfire, etc. Fix these problems first. Otherwise, they will still be there even if you replace the engine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony_n_Ca Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I'm at a point where I'm getting ready to buy my second engine (third if you count the original) for a '98 OBW I've had for two-plus years. My second engine was a used one I had to buy on the interstate when my subie ran hot and cracked the heads (or so I was told). I'm having problems with the engine and it seems like it would be cheaper to replace then to keep spending on it every couple of months. I've noticed that everyone talks about buying a rebuilt engine ($2895 CCR) instead of rebuilding their own engine. Is there a good reason for this? Wouldn't it be cheaper for me to pull my engine and take it to a machine shop for a rebuild? zzzasy Zzzasy, I only read your post and not the rest of this thread. So someone may have already stated what I have bleow. I am 46 and have been a mechanic since high school. I first started off as a mechanic's helper after school and worked my way up from there. I have even worked in a motor shop - where all we did was R&R Engines. We ordered an engine from one of our many suppliers and while we waited for it to arrive we took the old one out. Most engines we had done within 2 to 3 days. So here is MTCW - When it comes to rebuilding engines. Most of the time one can get a better price and surely a faster turn around time - from a well know - Let me state that again - "A WELL KNOWN" engine rebuilding company. This is because it is all they do!! They have better buying power and they specailize in doing one thing - REBUILDING ENGINES and or TRANSMISSIONS. Now some times - one can get a good deal at a local machine shop - If they are slow and depending on the engine you are looking to have rebuilt and one's own connections with that local shop. Good luck and PLEASE keep us posted - as it can help others too..... PS - I left out one important thing. I like to call the domino effect - when it comes to engine and or transmission rebuilding. One never knows - until they take it completely apart - what they will find. SO EACH engine rebuild is different and thus - the cost is different. Some times you open up a can of worms... However with the manufacturers who rebuild engines - they do every thing like clock work - they treat all engines the same and do more work then most local shops for the same $$$. Plus they have a FIXED price - to the customer or shop they supply their products to. Plus you get a good warranty - with the larger firms... Its a NO brainer to me..... Again good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzasy Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Thanks for the info. As soon as the snow leave and the weather gets better I will get the technical flow instructions from the official manual and play around with the timing issue. Question; I do believe I read on the forum that there is not need to use a compression tool to find TDC when doing timing. You only need to concentrate on matching the timing marks. Is this correct? zzzasy '98 OBW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Thanks for the info. As soon as the snow leave and the weather gets better I will get the technical flow instructions from the official manual and play around with the timing issue. Question; I do believe I read on the forum that there is not need to use a compression tool to find TDC when doing timing. You only need to concentrate on matching the timing marks. Is this correct? zzzasy '98 OBW \ That's correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eventoday Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 my timing belt broke and caused my valves to bend. i am not much of a mechanic but i pulled the engine out very easily. i took the heads to a machine shop. they rebuilt the heads adjusted the the valves and did everything for a little under $400 dollars. i replaced everything else i could possibly replace another 500 dollars. (Except the bottom end and pistons which i have been told can go 3-400000 miles). now i have a top end with no miles on it really for $900. to me it seemed better than buying a rebuilt or used engine for $2500. car runs great tons of power and the new clutch is really nice jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Years ago I was into air cooled VWs. All we did and talked about was rebuilding engines. A car would last through about four engines easily. If you do good maintenence a Subaru engine can last the life of the car. There are a lot of engines out there that survive past the life of the car. This is a different market for sure. You also get the fact that these engine are fairly complicated and have alloy blocks. This means that some skill is needed to do a good cylinder wall for a rebuild. I think there is a good reason so many folks get a block from CCRINC. We do have some enthuiasts that rebuld them for fun but a lot of us are just maintaining and working on what breaks. At this point I think the engine in my Forester is going to last as long as I own the car as at 125,000 miles the only difference is that the piston slap is a little louder when cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzasy Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 When I was talking about rebuilding a engine, I was not talking about doing the machine work myself. I was thinking, if I already have the engine pulled, I should be able to drop the heads off at the machine shop and get them done for $500 to 650. And get the bottom end done for somewhere around $800 to $900. I don't know if these prices are realistic, but its alot less than $2895. I'm I that far off base. zzzasy '98 OBW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Price it in your area, perhaps they will let you do some work around the shop also where you'd learn something as well as get the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 or find a used 2.2 liter motor that doesn't blow headgaskets and be done with the 2.5's! then you'd be done for under $500. plenty on the board have done it. the 2.2 is a great motor (and i have one for sale by the way, shameless plug). it's cheaper, no head gasket issues, less time than a head gasket job...not a bad option. but a little less power. if you have the time/money/tools then go wtih the all out rebuild. drop the block off for a rebuild. if the block is okay, reuse it. any shop will rebuild the heads. i just had a set of 6 cylinder subaru heads done for $175 for a complete valve job, pressure test and machining. and that shop is not the cheapest around, but they do specialize in aluminum heads and have worked on subaru heads before. and i like them. do you know your block is toast for sure? block rebuilds are the real expense. you could look for a used block that doesnt' need rebuilt, and install your heads with new gaskets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 The bottom end parts are what kills you, expense-wise. I've done a couple of EA82s, replacing everything myself and having the heads professionally done, and I estimate I spent between $800 and $1000 on it. That's with no machine work to the block. For me, it's not worth my time to rebuild an engine myself if I'm doing it for somebody. The next time I need an engine, I'm going to go with a good used engine or one from CCR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 I'm at a point where I'm getting ready to buy my second engine (third if you count the original) for a '98 OBW I've had for two-plus years. My second engine was a used one I had to buy on the interstate when my subie ran hot and cracked the heads (or so I was told). I'm having problems with the engine and it seems like it would be cheaper to replace then to keep spending on it every couple of months. I've noticed that everyone talks about buying a rebuilt engine ($2895 CCR) instead of rebuilding their own engine. Is there a good reason for this? Wouldn't it be cheaper for me to pull my engine and take it to a machine shop for a rebuild? zzzasy It takes time, space, and you need to be anal retentive to rebuild a engine yourself. you can do it, but also another key to the rebuild is a good machine shop. Machine shops are disapearing as cars become more of a throw away item. It's not that difficult to rebuild an engine, but what may take you 2-3 weeks to do yourself. Buying a rebuild reduces the time to 2-3 days sometimes less. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I had a Chrysler product that blew a main bearing at 100,000 miles. I asked around and found a shop that specialized in engine replacement. They only installed engines from a regional rebuilder. I did some due dilligence, checked the BBBs, and state attorney's office for any problems with both companies. They both came back sqeaky clean. I picked up my car with the newly installed rebuillt engine. The very next day the low oil light came on, I immediately pulled over, checked the dipstick and saw that all the oil was gone. The engine was ruined. It burnt a quart of oil every 500 miles, and eventually blew the head gasket. The installer kept jerking me around. He claimed that the installation was done right, but the rebuilder gave him a bad engine. The rebuilder claimed that they had given installer a good engine, but he had botched the installation. I got the impression that these guys may have "played" a customer like this before, more than once. What saved me was that I bought the rebuilt engine THROUGH the installer. Anyway you sliced it, the installer was on the hook. After two months of fun and games with this " professional installer" I had him served with a Magistrate's Court (small claims court) summons. Even then the guy didn't make good, he set his collections attorney up against me. He even got the court date postponed. Two days before the final court date he agreed to put in a replacement engine. Bad, bad, bad experience. If a rebuilt engine fails and even if the rebuilder makes good, you're still out addtional remove and install costs and shipping. It is not a risk free deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAWalker Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Price just the pistions for and EJ25 from Subaru, not cheap! Also CCR's engines come with new water pump, timing belt, oil filter, spark plugs, the timing belt covers are on, valve covers are on. Very little parts swaping between the old and new engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Price just the pistions for and EJ25 from Subaru, not cheap! Also CCR's engines come with new water pump, timing belt, oil filter, spark plugs, the timing belt covers are on, valve covers are on. Very little parts swaping between the old and new engines. pistons are rarely replaced when an engine is rebuilt,and if they are replaced, you replace only one. a Piston may get re-nurled, but thats about it. Again it comes down to a good machine shop. Pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft, block, heads, are serviced or reused if not too badly damaged. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 It may be different in your area Nip and folks are more sane, but most rebuilds here juat get a clean up bore and new pistons of whatever brand the rebuilder gets cheap. You can always pay extra or buy your own pistons. On my last rebuild I went 10 over and used genuine Mercedes piston and seals. That engine was better than it came from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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