Steven Romero Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Experts, I need some input. My subaru was finally on the road after some minor maitenance, and now she's dead in the water. She was running great, and I had just given her a nice SeaFoam treatment. The only problem I had with her was a coolant leak, and a slightly rough idle while the car was in gear. Then yesterday I was sitting at a light, and she died. I couldn't get her started, but I managed to push her into a paved lot, and started troubleshooting. I tried the coil and that was good. I then removed a plug, and there was no spark. Hmmmm...so I pulled the disty cap, and saw that the rotor was moving very erratically while a friend tried to crank her. This prompted me to think it may be a timing belt issue, but after prying the bottom of the cam covers open I could not see any broken belts. The top drivers side belt was really loose, but the bottom of the belt (under the tensioner) felt tight. Is this normal? I'm thinking the belts must have slipped because they were loose. Would bad timing cause a spark plug not to fire? My thinking is it would fire regardless of timing as long as the distributor was good, but just not in right sequence. I started running out of daylight (and tools and knowledge), so I had it towed to my mechanic. Can anyone share their loose/broken timing belt experiences with me, so I can make a comparison with my situation. I'm really worried this is going to cost me quite a bit. Could this be a problem with: 1) the belts 2) the distributor or 3) the starter Thanks. ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subarian Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 A slipped timing belt will cause the plugs to fire at the wrong time (the sequence doesn't change). If you're missing a tooth or two, it will get worse with every revolution. It's really hard to diagnose a timing belt through the tiny inspection hole- you need to remove the cover and see what the belt looks like and if the cam is in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revbill Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 "the rotor was moving very erratically" This makes it sound like some of the teeth are missing from the driver's side belt, so it's not turning the distributor right, like it's slipping. As mentioned in another recent post, it could be that the idler bearings are worn and are starting to strip the teeth. And I don't think the belt should be as loose as you described. It's really not that hard to do the timing belts yourself, so they shouldn't be too expensive to pay someone to do (if they know what they're doing.) As Subarian said, the best way to see what's going on is to take the covers off so you can see the inside of the belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 A slipped timing belt will cause the plugs to fire at the wrong time (the sequence doesn't change). If you're missing a tooth or two, it will get worse with every revolution. It's really hard to diagnose a timing belt through the tiny inspection hole- you need to remove the cover and see what the belt looks like and if the cam is in time. Yeah I was sort of afraid that would be the answer. I just replaced the plugs, wires, distributor cap, so I don't think those components have failed. Could this be a bad rotor. I hope my distributor isn't fried. What else could cause the spark plugs not to fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Either the little screw that holds the rotor in place fell out and the rotor is spinning on the shaft, or you are missing some teeth on the drivers side timing belt. If the rotor isn't turning, the plugs won't fire, because the rotor isn't connecting them to the wires. This sounds exactly like what mine did when the belt went -- looked fine still, till I took it off, and found about 2 inch of teeth missing where it went around the crankshaft pully. Try cranking it with the timing covers off, and I'll bet the drivers side timing belt doesn't move. Zeke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Either the little screw that holds the rotor in place fell out and the rotor is spinning on the shaft, or you are missing some teeth on the drivers side timing belt. If the rotor isn't turning, the plugs won't fire, because the rotor isn't connecting them to the wires. This sounds exactly like what mine did when the belt went -- looked fine still, till I took it off, and found about 2 inch of teeth missing where it went around the crankshaft pully. Try cranking it with the timing covers off, and I'll bet the drivers side timing belt doesn't move. Zeke Thanks for the input. The mechanic said they eliminated the possibility of fuel issues, and that the spark plugs are getting spark now. In my frustration I might have had the dizzy cap off when I tested this initially, hence no spark...duh! The rotor is missing a screw, but it was before, and the rotor shaft is notched where the rotor fits into place, so it will turn without it. I know this isn't optimal, but its the best I could do, and it did run before without said screw. I think you are right about the timing belt, although from looking at it from under car after prying open the cam cover on the driver's side it looks to be moving, but it is awfully loose, and it appears to have moved off-center from the cam gears/idler pully. It probably is missing a tooth or something, or maybe it just got really loose. Man I really would have liked to get my hands on this problem. I know I could have fixed it myself, and I could have learned so much, but the fiance is already starting to get a little p-o'd that I'm spending time with this car. She's actually started referring the car as another woman...bother. :-\ I hope it doesn't give me too many problems in the future because I won't be able to work on it near as much as I would like, and paying somebody else to is just dumb when I know I can fix it myself. ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemery10 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I just had a similar issue but more off a badly running engine than won't go. I had about 2inches of slack in my passenger side (Aus) belt. As suggested in How to keep your subaru alive I tensioned it and that pretty much fixed it. Also in my experience crossing a swollen creek everyday will rust the idler bearing and possibly tensioner which quickly stripped the longer belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 Things are going great now....the mechanic says he won't know anything until he takes of the cam covers, and that will only cost $300.00 . He says that they have to do this in order to find out what is wrong because they can't tell, but they think it may be a broken cam ???? This is starting to get too expensive... On top of that great news I just found out that someone opened a credit card account in my name and made an 8,500.00 balance transfer ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrogers Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Wow that sucks. Identity theft is a bid deal. Do the T-Belts move at all? -=fred=- Things are going great now....the mechanic says he won't know anything until he takes of the cam covers, and that will only cost $300.00 . He says that they have to do this in order to find out what is wrong because they can't tell, but they think it may be a broken cam ???? This is starting to get too expensive... On top of that great news I just found out that someone opened a credit card account in my name and made an 8,500.00 balance transfer ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subarian Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 It really sounds like you have a timing belt issue- either stripped or loose. If your mechanic is going to charge $300 just to look at the timing belts, I'd find another mechanic. And it's VERY unlikely that the cam is broken. You need someone who knows Subaru engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revbill Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I'd find another mechanic. I would, too. Did they even check the timing belts? What makes them think it's a broken cam, of all things? If you don't need the car right away, you might think about having it towed back to your house so you can think about what to do next, rather than paying a mechanic to poke around semi-randomly at your expense. And sorry to hear about the credit card thing. It should be cleared up, but it sucks to have to do all that work because someone tried to rip you off (plus we get to pay the interest rates to pay for crap like this.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 I agree. I think this is starting to get dumb real quick. $300.00 to look. That's frickin' nuts. I'm really pissed about this. I know it would only cost me around $100 in parts to do the same job, and it would probably only take me a day considering I've never done it before, but I'm familiar with the procedure and know that it cannot be that hard. I can't believe this. ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 Ok so I got in contact with the mechanic, and told him I was going to back out. Even though the bill is only up to $78 now, he said that they think that the timing belt slipped, and that there is some sort of noise coming from the drivers side which makes him think that the cam is broken or that a "valve may be bent or broken", and thus the noise. Now he's offering the initial diagnostic fee of $300, and he told me that I could make payment arrangements to make it easier to pay. I'm very split on what to do from this point. I could have it towed all the way back, and then try to fix it myself, but if I have to pull the engine to do some sort of valve or head job, I'm screwed. I have no room or time for that, and my fiance would kill me if I told her I was going to do that. So my choices now are: 1) have them tell me what is wrong with the car for $300, and then go from there :-\ 2) have the car towed, and try to find out what is wrong with it myself, and maybe repair it 3) tell the mechanic to find a salvage yard that wants to buy it :-\ 4) offer it up for sale on this board I'm sorry I'm dumping here guys/gals, but I'm really confused about what to do now, and need to use you as a sounding board... Damn, and this car was running great only 2 nights ago... thanks. ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subarian Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 5) find a buddy to help you with the timing belt. The 1.8 is a non-interference engine. It doesn't break things when the timing belt goes. It's a pretty simple job if you have basic mechanical knowledge and take your time. I last priced out parts about a week ago. With new tensioners, idlers, reseal kit for the oil pump and a water pump it came out to about $110, but I'm at work and can't remember the website. I do know they sell on ebay, so you might find them that way. The timing belts are simple. Line up the center timing mark on the flywheel (three hash marks close together, not the numbered ignition timing marks). Put the driver-side belt on with the cam gear pointing to the timing mark (up). Rotate the crank 1 revolution and line up the center mark again. Put on the passenger-side belt with the gear pointing to the timing mark (up). The driver-side cam gear will be pointing down and the passenger side up- 180 degrees out. Put it back together and start it up. If you want to go really cheap, just get the two belts. It's going to cost you about $40 and 2 to 4 hours of your time to find out if it's going to run (and I'd bet it will) instead of the $300 to have your mechanic try to educate himself on something he obviously doesn't know anything about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stumpy Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I agree with Subarian. I had the same problem with an 89 GL10 I picked up for cheap. Drivers side belt had only about 12 good teeth left on it but still turned the cam (Rotor turned with cap off) with no problem making it seem like it should run. Didn't see the condition of the belt until I removed the cover. 15$ for a new belt from Subaru dealer and a few hours of my time and it's now a runner. This was the first ea82 timing belt I had done and there are no timing makes for alignment as the back cover has large chuncks out of it right at the top. You should be able to remove the drivers side cover quickly as there are only 3 bolts at most to hold it on, it's a tight fit for large hands but can be done. I removed the cover on the ea82 and an ej22 for inspection before moving forward on tear down. ie; removal of fan, fan belt, crank pulley, the other timing covers, ect: On one of my ej22's one of the idlers was bad allowing a good belt to jump time. Would run for short periods (Few trips around block) some times or jump while cranking. Stumpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 Wow you guys are awesome for giving me such confident support. Thanks. I think I've decided to have the car towed to my house where I will try to find out what is wrong and go from there. I'm almost positive, as are you all, that the belt is the problem. I guess I'm out the $78 bucks, and the towing fee (good thing I have Sprint Roadside service), but it's better than paying $300 for a simple diagnostic. That's just crazy. You know I wish there were some non-dealer Subaru experts around, but the Subaru hasn't really caught on in the South like it has where you guys are, so there really aren't any specialty shops that I know of in Houston that deal with Subaru. I enjoy the warm weather here in Texas, but when it comes to the Subaru I wish I was up north where there was a bit more local support. Any subaru mechanic worth his salt and a little capital would make a killing by coming to Houston and opening his own specialty shop. If you are out there consider the risk because the newer Subaru's are getting very popular here, and there really isn't a lot of expert knowledge to go around. Thanks again. I'll update this thread in a few days when I have time to look at the car. ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Funny thing is it takes about 15 minutes to remove the cam covers (both)and the whole story is right there... $300 for this is scam. Diagnostic huh? That's just balony. Most likely a broken/stripped belt. You can leave the covers off when you do the belt (lots of folks do), and this will allow you to see and change them very easily in the future. It IS possible to break a cam - someone on here did it in fact. Pretty unlikely tho. Was probably a defect in the steel. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 i have had belts strip teeth in my car. turned the otor and the belt did not spin ,although the belt was not broken i suggest doing the tim ing belts yourself and run them no covers(for future maintenance) http://www.economysuperstar.com/milesfox/subaru/service/timingbelt.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breaffyaviation Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 i have had belts strip teeth in my car. turned the otor and the belt did not spin ,although the belt was not broken i suggest doing the tim ing belts yourself and run them no covers(for future maintenance) http://www.economysuperstar.com/milesfox/subaru/service/timingbelt.htm The first time I attempted to do belts on an ea 82 engine ,I had no idea what I was dealing with.The people on this board made it very easy for me.I agree with Miles Fox,do it yourself ,ask the questions here,and throw the plastic covers away.I have a spare new unused set of Pirelli belts,some used but servicable tensioners and and even a complete engine going very reasonable. If you need anything Let me know. Regards Jude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill90Loyale Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 " The rotor is missing a screw, but it was before, and the rotor shaft is notched where the rotor fits into place, so it will turn without it. I know this isn't optimal, but its the best I could do, and it did run before without said screw." If it were mine, I'd find a screw at the junkyard and try it again before tackling the T-belt issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdjdc Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 What are the stats on your engine and how much would you want for it? Also would you be willing to ship it to me? On my dime of sourse. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealleyboy Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Some good advice above, and let me reiterate a couple of points: - This is clearly a timing issue. Any mechanic who starts making xpensive diagnosis without exhausting the {less expensive} basics first is an incompetant, a crook, or both. - You should attempt it yourself first, to get a feel for your car - if nothing more. If it does turn out to be something you can't handle, at least you'll be the one calling the shots, and not some dumb-rump roast mechanic who doesn't even know how to open a service manual. - Fox's write-up on timing belt servicing is the best information on the topic available. Read it so you can fully understand the system - and diagnose the true problem very quickly. - A "backup Sube" almost comes with the territory, {especially turbos} so you should think about finding another one so you have your wheels during down time. Not that the turbos are bad cars, but you'll be tinkering with it a while to get it where it needs to be. A EA82 SPFI would be a good choice. - Ditch the GF. If she's ***************ing now, it can only go downhill. Trust me on this. Find a girl that isn't jealous of 20 year old Subes!! good luck, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 i have had belts strip teeth in my car. turned the otor and the belt did not spin ,although the belt was not broken i suggest doing the tim ing belts yourself and run them no covers(for future maintenance) http://www.economysuperstar.com/milesfox/subaru/service/timingbelt.htm You've got an interesting website there Miles.... Thanks for the tip! ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Romero Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 The first time I attempted to do belts on an ea 82 engine ,I had no idea what I was dealing with.The people on this board made it very easy for me.I agree with Miles Fox,do it yourself ,ask the questions here,and throw the plastic covers away.I have a spare new unused set of Pirelli belts,some used but servicable tensioners and and even a complete engine going very reasonable. If you need anything Let me know.Regards Jude Jude thanks for the input. I may be PM'ing you about those belts and tensioners (and maybe the engine). ./steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 good thing you got out of that shop, and fast. Payment plan is the tool of the wallet rapist. Another thing to consider is the keyway on the camshaft. If the key sheared, the pullly could have rotated on the cam. Definiatly an issue beween the distributor rotor and the crank pully, so left side of the engine. Take off the top end cover on the timing belt left side, and start from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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