malamute Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Any body have any opinions on Subaru making a diesel? I really don't care if they sell them in Europe, but I would like to buy one in the US. The problem with using a standard boxer block is that I don't think it would be strong enough to handle the combustion forces. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I have a couple of pictures of horizontally opposed diesel engines to give some "other" ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack in Norfolk Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Have you done a search on this? I know there have been a couple of threads in the past year or so. The most interesting thing that I got out of it was that there is a fabled ea82 diesel forklift motor. I have not seen pics or specs or anything else to substantiate the claim however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malamute Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Have you done a search on this? Just a small one (hence the pictures). The other thing is is that every time I look at a Justy block, it "looks" like it could have been a diesel block. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Sub4WD Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 i know there was a EA81 diesel, but I think it had a funny casting and all (for the forklift) - only problem with it in the car is that it made ~30hp, prolly lots of torque, but you won't win any drag races..... the horizontally opposed engines you are looking at are (I think) used in submarines, they are massive things too - the engine internals for EA engines is completely different in piston configuration than the engines you are looking at - the "flat four" or traditional "horizontally opposed" means the pistons point away from each other; not facing each other as in the pictures you are showing; actually it would be impossible to make a subaru engine block run in that configuraton without SERIOUS modifications, including piston sleeves as the combustion chambers are shaped differently still it is a neat design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malamute Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 i know there was a EA81 diesel, but I think it had a funny casting and all (for the forklift) - only problem with it in the car is that it made ~30hp, prolly lots of torque, but you won't win any drag races..... the horizontally opposed engines you are looking at are (I think) used in submarines, they are massive things too - the engine internals for EA engines is completely different in piston configuration than the engines you are looking at - the "flat four" or traditional "horizontally opposed" means the pistons point away from each other; not facing each other as in the pictures you are showing; actually it would be impossible to make a subaru engine block run in that configuraton without SERIOUS modifications, including piston sleeves as the combustion chambers are shaped differently still it is a neat design Both were made for airplanes. The top one was for a high-altitude bomber. I have a friend with an 85-foot ocean tug. That has a serious opposed diesel in it. Very cool beans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 That drawing wouldn't have been one of Sir Harry Ricardo's inventions, was it? It shows some exotic stuff on it, like the dual stage exhaust turbines connected to one of the crank shafts. Or maybe it is a dual stage super charger? Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 See if you can search for threads with diesel that I've posted in, and there's a bit of discussion. I can't remember exactly where they are any more, but I really really really really really want a biodiesel subaru. They are rumored to be developing a 2.0 liter HO diesel for the UK legacies in 2008. I wonder how much that'll cost to get my hands on one of them. I don't see any reason it couldn't be made strong enough. The subaru already has a short stroke, which is good for a high rpm diesel (my diesel rabbit will rev to 4500rpm happily, but the 2.3 liter turbodiesel in my truck redlines at about 4k). Maybe something like a EJ22T with the displacement reduced to 2.0 liters by shrinking the bore. And different heads, and an injection pump sitting up top by the alternator of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85Sub4WD Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Both were made for airplanes. The top one was for a high-altitude bomber. I have a friend with an 85-foot ocean tug. That has a serious opposed diesel in it. Very cool beans. I didn't know they were also made for airplanes - I knew about the submarine application because I got to take a tour of a WWII era sub with that style engine in it - don't remember if it was German or American Airplane use of diesel engines is a relatively new phenomonon - one of my grandfathers is a Korean War vet from the Air Force - actually he worked on ground control at Miami International Airport until about a year ago (retired) - he mentioned how diesel aircraft are starting to catch on. I like the concept of diesel aircraft engines because diesel fuel is far less volitile than gasoline, and it does not vaporize as easily. Diesel also has more btu's of heat in it (more stored energy), so it would allow for longer flights with a smaller fuel tank. (that's why diesel pickup trucks can get 20+mpg, and VW diesels get 40+ mpg) The only downside I would see is that it gels at low temps, so I would expect high-altitude flyers would need to have the tanks heated (which they probably already do). Still, it is cool ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 The other driving factor behind using diesel engines in airplanes is that they'll run on jet fuel -- which is cheap compared to aviation gasoline. Plus more readily available at airports nowadays... The german WWII junkers bombers used diesel engines -- they were having a severe fuel shortage in Germany, so perhaps that drove them to develope an alternative to gas engines for their airplanes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_86 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malamute Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 The other driving factor behind using diesel engines in airplanes is that they'll run on jet fuel -- which is cheap compared to aviation gasoline. Plus more readily available at airports nowadays... The german WWII junkers bombers used diesel engines -- they were having a severe fuel shortage in Germany, so perhaps that drove them to develope an alternative to gas engines for their airplanes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_86 Yup, that a Junkers engine on top. But I am trying to find more info on the bottom engine. The opposed boxer is cool for diesels because two cylinders fire at the same time, distributing the ignition forces evenly through the case. The current Subaru boxer would probably go through engine mounts like nobody's busines in diesel mode. I just find it facinating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I think the one on the bottom is a DAIR100 http://www.dair.co.uk/ I bet one of these would fit pretty nicely into a subaru... about $5,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eponodyne Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Dornier used them in the flying boats too. I think it was the Junkers Juno engine. I think the idea of two pistons sharing the same combustion chamber is pretty damned elegant, is there any reason it wouldn't work with a gas engine? Tho by definition it would kind of have to be a two-stroke, wouldn't it? I'm always on the lookout for a wrecked New Beetle or Jetta with the 1.9 Tdi engine in it. That or the Land-Rover Tdi, pretty hard to find in the US but hope springs eternal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack in Norfolk Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I would also be very interested in a biodiesel subaru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortimc Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I was recently talking to Doc. Seal the other day at the Vehicle Research Institute (VRI) at WWU. I was asking him about diesels in subarus and he said, along with developing the DOHC EA81 engine for the Quattro San, both he and Subaru developed their own working diesels and they both came to the conclusion that it wasnt a good idea. Even though at the time they were pretty sure that it would work well. Our engines simply dont have the proper surface area to bore ratio. So it doesnt really matter how much compression the engine can make, even though aparently the engine could take the loads. Seal agreed that a VW diesel engine would be best suited for a subaru, and it would work well with the transmission. There is a lot of diesel VW engines at the VRI as well as Subaru transmissions so, when I get some free time, one of my projects will be to make an adapter plate, I have made an adapter plate to connect an electric motor to a mazda transmission and its not that difficult. I dont know a thing about engine electronics and luckly diesles have barely any, so im surprised one of us doesnt have one yet, and im all for biodiesel! Clayton Bellingham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 Yeah, when I stuck a diesel VW into a gas VW body, I had to rip out about 40 wires, and hook 4 up to the diesel. If you make an adaptor to hook a VW diesel up to a subaru EA82 or EA81 tranny, I'll buy one. I think it'll have to tip the VW diesel over at a 50 degree angle like the VW vanagons did, in order to clear the hood. The adaptor is what finally stumped me in my project -- didn't own a good enough machine shop to make the adaptor plate. I like my VW rabbit, but I'd like to have a diesel in my GL wagon even better.... I was recently talking to Doc. Seal the other day at the Vehicle Research Institute (VRI) at WWU. I was asking him about diesels in subarus and he said, along with developing the DOHC EA81 engine for the Quattro San, both he and Subaru developed their own working diesels and they both came to the conclusion that it wasnt a good idea. Even though at the time they were pretty sure that it would work well. Our engines simply dont have the proper surface area to bore ratio. So it doesnt really matter how much compression the engine can make, even though aparently the engine could take the loads. Seal agreed that a VW diesel engine would be best suited for a subaru, and it would work well with the transmission. There is a lot of diesel VW engines at the VRI as well as Subaru transmissions so, when I get some free time, one of my projects will be to make an adapter plate, I have made an adapter plate to connect an electric motor to a mazda transmission and its not that difficult. I dont know a thing about engine electronics and luckly diesles have barely any, so im surprised one of us doesnt have one yet, and im all for biodiesel! Clayton Bellingham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballitch Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 the hp would suck, but the low end torque would scream burnouts and towing. ~Josh~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan86GL10 Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I would also be very interested in a biodiesel subaru. Amen, was looking for a 4x4 biodesiel that was economical but that was high dreaming and all the old 300's are expensive to fix. Would be a score to find a diesel that would the EA82 engine compartment and mate to the drivetrain without too much adapting. I've conceded to converting the subaru to propane right now. Got most of the parts already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 the hp would suck, but the low end torque would scream burnouts and towing. ~Josh~ Depends on which diesel you put in there. The old 1.6NA's are only 52 HP, about 80ft lbs torque I think, and are pretty slow if you hit hills, but the 1.9TDI's are 110HP and 180ft lbs torque. They are way faster in the mountains than any honda civic I've driven -- stays in 5th gear going up passes at 75mph..... (the same pass my '82 GL dropped into 2nd before the top of....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baccaruda Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think it'll have to tip the VW diesel over at a 50 degree angle like the VW vanagons did, in order to clear the hood. not if you have a lifted EA82 wagon. I have taken preliminary measurements and believe that a newer 1.9 TDI will fit with the hood closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlelegacy Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 What really gets me is that in other countries, manufacturers like toyota (for example) sell their trucks with diesels yet don't offer them in the US. I was talking to a friend who thinks there are other manufacturers that do the same. I would buy a diesel in a heartbeat, but for whatever reason, the US market doesn't support them, which is beyond me since the mileage in the smaller 4 cyl diesels is unfreaking believable. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlelegacy Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 not if you have a lifted EA82 wagon. I have taken preliminary measurements and believe that a newer 1.9 TDI will fit with the hood closed. that would be sick. Someone please do it. My only concern would be the gearing ratios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baccaruda Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 patience, grasshopper! I intend to mate the TDI to my sorta-stock EA82 transmisson (sorta stock cause it's from an RX but the bellhousing pattern is the same) Gotta get the EJ swap done so I can sell the brat so I can buy the TDI swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty B Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I've conceded to converting the subaru to propane right now. Got most of the parts already. Good man, let me know if you need help or advice, You will love it. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 not if you have a lifted EA82 wagon. I have taken preliminary measurements and believe that a newer 1.9 TDI will fit with the hood closed. But does that take into account the transmission input shaft position? It sits really high on a subaru compared to most tranverse engined cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted February 24, 2006 Share Posted February 24, 2006 What really gets me is that in other countries, manufacturers like toyota (for example) sell their trucks with diesels yet don't offer them in the US. I was talking to a friend who thinks there are other manufacturers that do the same. I would buy a diesel in a heartbeat, but for whatever reason, the US market doesn't support them, which is beyond me since the mileage in the smaller 4 cyl diesels is unfreaking believable. :-\ Pretty much all of them except subaru. Take a look at any manufacturers website for the south african or thai market and look at the specs. Not just the trucks, but the cars, suv's, everything. When I was in Mauritania, I think the only gasoline powered vehicals I saw were some chevy cars the US embassy had. Everything else was old diesels. And some nice new diesels. Much as I like my 22 year old Mitsubishi diesel truck, I wouldn't mind a new Mazda Drifter either... Citroen even has a diesel hybrid that gets 80mpg in France. But remember, as a good US consumer you must remember that all diesels are like the GM350 diesel -- belching black smoke, and making lots of noise, but not actually accellerating, and good luck getting more than 75k miles out of it. The US diesel market is still trying to recover from that fiasco. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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