LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 i'm taking my legacy (1996, LS, 2.2, 115k miles) to the dealership on thursday. my theory is that it needs a new Duty C solenoid. Why? - awd goes bye bye and wheels get locked into 4wheel. - HARD binding in turns when this happens - when i put in the FWD fuse it sometimes doesn't work right after i install it (which leads me to believe there's an electrical problem) - after i have binding the AT TEMP light does the "16-flash-boogie". So, i think i'm pretty on top of what the probem is, but i'm not telling the dealership that i kno anything aside from the symptoms. i'm going in as a no-nothing customer because i want a real diagnosis instead of just going in and saying "replace my Transfer Duty Solenoid" and have that not be the whole problem. so, what do you think i can expect the dealer to tell me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 you're awesome!!! i totally look forward to this! what do you think i can expect the dealer to tell me? "you need a new transmission" followed by a large 4 digit estimate. don't let on you know anything, i want to see how bad they try to hose you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 8, 2006 Author Share Posted August 8, 2006 you're awesome!!! i totally look forward to this! "you need a new transmission" followed by a large 4 digit estimate. don't let on you know anything, i want to see how bad they try to hose you! yeah...funny thing is, i probably could go for a new tranny....my car's very "tired". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Boncyk Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 Hey - If yours is like mine was, much of that "tiredness" is due to the powertrain driving all 4 wheels all the time. Once the Duty C solenoid is replaced (and the clutchpack if your plates have all welded together -- usually that occurs before the solenoid goes bad -- but not always), then you'll feel an instant return to your sube's days of old! Seriously, after I did the extension housing work on my AT (replaced clutch pack and Duty C solenoid, cleaned everything and put it all back together), it was like I was driving a new car again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 or, you need a new clutch pack, $950!!!! you're awesome!!! i totally look forward to this! "you need a new transmission" followed by a large 4 digit estimate. don't let on you know anything, i want to see how bad they try to hose you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixstar97 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 It could be the duty solenoid but most likely its the clutch pack. The viscous material wears out and causes binding. Make sure they measure for correct tolerance in the clutch pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MountainBiker Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 It could be the duty solenoid but most likely its the clutch pack. The viscous material wears out and causes binding. Make sure they measure for correct tolerance in the clutch pack. There isn't any viscous material near the transfer clutch pack on an Automatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 the clutch pack is designed to tolerate some slip. there is no viscous coupling. The amount of torque split is controled by the cycling of the solenoid and an internal spool valve. ive been here done this wrote the 950.00 check. good luck nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 the clutch pack is designed to tolerate some slip. there is no viscous coupling. The amount of torque split is controled by the cycling of the solenoid and an internal spool valve. ive been here done this wrote the 950.00 check. good luck nipper do you think there's any chance of them saying that i need both because they "like to do them together"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 do you think there's any chance of them saying that i need both because they "like to do them together"? no. Once the duty c solenoid fails the damage happens quickly. You may be lucky, as i have seen a few dealers just replace the solenoid, hard to tell with your low mileage. Ask them how they determined its both. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benebob Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 no. Once the duty c solenoid fails the damage happens quickly. You may be lucky, as i have seen a few dealers just replace the solenoid, hard to tell with your low mileage. Ask them how they determined its both. nipper We'll I put 300 miles on my SVX with a bad C and now she's got another 45k on the odo since so that always isn't the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 no. Once the duty c solenoid fails the damage happens quickly. You may be lucky, as i have seen a few dealers just replace the solenoid, hard to tell with your low mileage. Ask them how they determined its both. nipper with my description, what would you say? keep in mind that: when there's the malfunction, it acts as though there's no power to the solenoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2X2KOB Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 I think that is designed backwards. Electrical power on: disengaged, no risk of damage. Electrical power off: 100% engaged, potential risk of damage if front & back don't spin at the same rate. Seems that if those two conditions were reversed, we'd have a more "fail-safe" design. Just sayin'. Or maybe I'm totally wrong! If so tell me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOMAD327 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 You may get hit up for an extension housing replacement too if it has worn out, The design was changed for 98 or 99 with a steel bearing surface in one of the locations. on the earlier ones, the bearing surface was the aluminum housing itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 I think that is designed backwards. Electrical power on: disengaged, no risk of damage. Electrical power off: 100% engaged, potential risk of damage if front & back don't spin at the same rate. Seems that if those two conditions were reversed, we'd have a more "fail-safe" design. Just sayin'. Or maybe I'm totally wrong! If so tell me. yeah, thats why i'm saying that its electrical because it acts as though it loses power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 yeah, thats why i'm saying that its electrical because it acts as though it loses power. your fogetting a few things. Electrical problems can be intermittenet. ALso just because the solenoid is receiving power does not mean the valve part of the solenoid is moving, it can be stuck. and yes they are wired backwards, why that was done i have no idea, usually you have to power a solenoid to turn something on, not the other way around. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 your fogetting a few things. Electrical problems can be intermittenet. ALso just because the solenoid is receiving power does not mean the valve part of the solenoid is moving, it can be stuck. and yes they are wired backwards, why that was done i have no idea, usually you have to power a solenoid to turn something on, not the other way around. nipper would the valve part being stuck cause the light to flash and the FWD fuse to not work? i would guess that the FWD fuse part would be true because if it's stuck, it can't separate....and i guess that it would make sense as to why after i pull out the fuse it works well, until it gets stuck again. but wouldn't the FWD fuse light come on even if the valve is stuck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 would the valve part being stuck cause the light to flash and the FWD fuse to not work? i would guess that the FWD fuse part would be true because if it's stuck, it can't separate....and i guess that it would make sense as to why after i pull out the fuse it works well, until it gets stuck again. but wouldn't the FWD fuse light come on even if the valve is stuck? re read what i said, the solenoid can be in the process of failing too, an intermittent electrical problem. You will get a tranny temp light if the puter sends power to the solenoid, and does not see the voltage spike that tells the puter the solenoid valve has moved. you wont get a FWD light for the same reason. You wont get the light if the solenoid is burned out or stuck in the closed position. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 i think you said once before that how often it gets power determinse the power split , or something like that. as far as powering the duty c to turn off, that depends on whether the flow is restricted or increased with the power on. it's just the design of the valve (?). the gumming up senario of the 95s leads me to believe that less flow is more 4wd, duty c failure = more 4wd, so in a 90/10 split, there must be a fair amount of flow, and therefore a fair amount of power to the duty c. in a 50/50 split, less flow, less power (less often ?), and more 4wd. but apparently the valve is designed to open, more flow, with power, this would seem to protect the clutch pack / trans, with fluid flow and lubrication. could more fluid/flow allow the clutch to "slip" without damage, less flow "grab"? the burning up of the clutch caused by the constant grabing with the tension between front and rear, in a lees fluid condition? did i get this right.? john edit: ps: i don't really understand the mechanics of the clutch pack , but that's not really what this thread is about. don't let me distract you. your fogetting a few things. Electrical problems can be intermittenet. ALso just because the solenoid is receiving power does not mean the valve part of the solenoid is moving, it can be stuck. and yes they are wired backwards, why that was done i have no idea, usually you have to power a solenoid to turn something on, not the other way around. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Being in the process of cleaning the valve body and solenoids on a Legacy tranny, I might suggest that you try a couple ATF changes before you take the tranny in for major surgery (maybe with a cleaner like SeaFoam for the first couple changes). I have found almost all of the solenoids (I am not into the transfer housing...yet... so no "C"...yet...) have been gummed up, and I have managed to ungum most of them. Nipper: Do we KNOW that the TCU looks for an EMF buck when it actuates, as opposed to just looking for a certain impedance? If so, that would be nice to know. The solenoids work like they do (seemingly backwards) because it was easier to design them to tap into the fluid channels from the outside (as opposed to being inline) and then just "dump" the pressure and flow back into the fluid pan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 Being in the process of cleaning the valve body and solenoids on a Legacy tranny, I might suggest that you try a couple ATF changes before you take the tranny in for major surgery (maybe with a cleaner like SeaFoam for the first couple changes). I have found almost all of the solenoids (I am not into the transfer housing...yet... so no "C"...yet...) have been gummed up, and I have managed to ungum most of them. Nipper: Do we KNOW that the TCU looks for an EMF buck when it actuates, as opposed to just looking for a certain impedance? If so, that would be nice to know. The solenoids work like they do (seemingly backwards) because it was easier to design them to tap into the fluid channels from the outside (as opposed to being inline) and then just "dump" the pressure and flow back into the fluid pan. i've done a few flushes. do you think that they'll recommend a flush with the replacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 [quote name=NorthWet Nipper: Do we KNOW that the TCU looks for an EMF buck when it actuates, as opposed to just looking for a certain impedance? If so, that would be nice to know. [/quote] We know from two sources. One is from people experimenting with a switch to force AWD. The other (and not so clear) is from all the 4eat literiture from Subaru. They state the ecu for the tranny will flash the light for an open or shorted solenoid, solenoid failure to move (stuck), and the solenoid bieng stuck fully closed or fully open. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 We know from two sources. One is from people experimenting with a switch to force AWD. nipper HEY, THAT'S ME!!! ...and probably why i'm in this mess to begin with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 HEY, THAT'S ME!!! ...and probably why i'm in this mess to begin with no no not you, actually somone else who tried several things and variations. hehehe you i gave up on since you seemed heelbent for burning out your tranny nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 We know from two sources. One is from people experimenting with a switch to force AWD. The other (and not so clear) is from all the 4eat literiture from Subaru. They state the ecu for the tranny will flash the light for an open or shorted solenoid, solenoid failure to move (stuck), and the solenoid bieng stuck fully closed or fully open. nipper Thanks!!! Good info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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